[00:00:00] Joe Towne: Hey there I’m Joe Towne and this is The Better Podcast.

My guest this week is Anthony Sparks. Anthony is from the south side of Chicago. He’s an actor, a writer, and a producer as an actor. Anthony has been on the stage at Williamstown theater festival at the public theater and at the old globe, he spent five years as a cast member of the smash hit show Stomp.

As the comedic lead, while ed stump, he wrote backstage, he wrote a solo show, which got him some attention, not only as an actor, but also as a writer, a few years. He came out to Los Angeles to pursue a career writing television. He has since written on shows like undercovers for JJ Abrams and on the blacklist, both for NBC for the last six seasons.

He has been on the writing staff for queen sugar, working with Ava [00:01:00] DuVernay first as a writer producer. And for the last several years, as the showrunner of this critically acclaimed show on own is now creating shows under his overall deal with Blumhouse television. He is a book author, a show creator.

He also has his PhD in American studies and ethnicity. Let’s jump right into the conversation with Dr. Anthony Sparks, which is about the celebration of what is possible.

In this episode, you’ll probably notice a few things first, a new Yorker and a Chicago in get into a flow, swearing and SUSE. So be mindful that this episode has that also, there are some background noises. You may notice Anthony was kind enough to take some time out of his busy Workday. And some people were trying to reach him during our conversation.

Lastly, and this is a bit embarrassing, but I don’t exactly sound like me [00:02:00] during this episode. I’m kind of louder than normal. And it’s because I was having some problems with my headphones and recording device. And I’ve had some trouble hearing for a bulk of this conversation. So if I sound strange, that’s why.

All right, Anthony, thank you so much for being here. Here’s what I’d love to start. Imagine a whole bunch of people following you around. Like you’re a country. If your life had a newspaper, what would its current headline 

[00:02:35] Anthony Sparks: be rising? Beautiful. Okay. 

[00:02:39] Joe Towne: So I double click on this article. What does it tell you 

[00:02:42] Anthony Sparks: it’s telling you or the reader about, uh, young man or youngish who really feels that he is in a blessed place [00:03:00] where many of the things, um, that he has endeavored to do and be in his life, perhaps more importantly, more important B rather than do, is close to firing on all cylinders.

That’s the feeling that I have with great gratitude. Uh, and being able to be able to say that yeah, in many ways, I feel like even though I’m in different stages in my life, whether you’re talking about professionally, whether you’re talking about personally, whether you’re talking about as a husband, as a father, uh, as an educator, as an artist, as someone deeply engaged in the world, uh, from, uh, perhaps I guess you might as an activist that I am in some ways feeling like I’m just getting started.

Even though I acknowledge that I have been [00:04:00] fortunate and blessed to have a full range of activities or career or whatever you want to call it behind me at this point. But I feel like God willing, I’m just getting 

[00:04:10] Joe Towne: started. What a beautiful newspaper. I want to subscribe to this newspaper and thank you for sharing the depths of.

When people ask you about where you grew up, you’re proudly from the south side of Chicago. Very proud. Yes. Could you paint me a snapshot of growing up there? Like if, if you could whisk me to one place, like the ghost of Christmas past, where would you take 

[00:04:36] Anthony Sparks: me in? What would I see? Okay. Well, I grew up on the far south side of Chicago.

And what would you see? You would see a very small brick and aluminum siding house, a brick house that was half a house that was literally half brick and half aluminum society. You would see a neighborhood that was actually only two blocks long. [00:05:00] That was sort of situated by a freeway. Um, and, uh, train tracks.

You would see a house that’s literally on the other side of the train tracks. I literally, it took me a long time to actually realize like, wait a minute. I actually grew up. On the other side of the trip, like literally in my bag right outside my backyard is a train that my mom used to scream at me for playing on the train tracks when I was four or five years old.

So you would see a humble neighborhood of working people, uh, who had, um, a certain amount of pride and what they had while being very aware of what they didn’t have. But you would see a lot of love. Um, you would see a lot of sort of idealic [00:06:00] playing baseball or rather softball, excuse me. And the, uh, intersection of the two streets that made up my sort of immediate neighborhood, you would see all sorts of characters all up and down the street of block full of kids.

Back when you could still be like, get up in the morning and go out of your house. This is in seventies and eighties and just play all day. You would see all of those good things. You see a lot of love and you would see a lot of community and the real sense of the word. You would also see dysfunction as well.

You would see the neighborhoods start to turn and in such a way that did not feel safe at times you would see the, the, the joy, uh, young black children who had a stable home, you would start to, as they grew up, you would start to see [00:07:00] the institutions and our worlds start to impact those kids and their parents in a way where it could not be hidden or denied.

And you would see the realization and someone like me who loved where I grew up, you would see by the time I’m about 10 years old, me starting to realize I probably can’t stay here. And I’m being raised not to stay here, here, meaning both a physical place, as well as being, um, a mental and spiritual place too.

And that I was being raised to expand the ground upon which I began and the ground upon which I would live and do live. And that, unfortunately that would mean leaving. 

[00:07:52] Joe Towne: Yeah. I hear a lot in there. I know. Believe you were the first person in your family to be born in Chicago [00:08:00] and not in Mississippi.

That’s true. And I love that you started with the beauty and the connection and the love. And I’m picturing little, you at four or five on the train tracks. And two things stand out to me, the innocence and curiosity of wanting to play on these tracks. But also then I start to wonder who put the tracks there.

The freeway there.

The history of the transportation system in America has long been a tool for discrimination. It’s been reinforced daily from the creation of highways, roads, bridges, and other public transport. We have made it harder for black people and other people of color to access and take advantage of opportunities.

Highways were being built just as courts around the [00:09:00] country were striking down traditional tools of racial segregation. So for example, courts were striking down the use of racial zoning to keep black people in certain communities and white people in other communities. And so the highway development popped up at a time when the idea, the possibility of integration in housing was on the horizon American cities that were subdivided by railroads in the 19th century, into physically discrete neighborhoods.

Became much more segregated decades later where railroads replaced, created communities, which literally existed on the other side of the tracks. We see the impact of this on cities from Pittsburgh to Tampa, to Kansas city, Missouri. Here’s something I didn’t know about the city. I live in Los Angeles in 1910, some 36% of Las African-Americans were homeowners compared with 2.4% in New York city tops in the nation.[00:10:00] 

We had a comprehensive transit system, red car, which offered easy unsegregated access to areas of economic opportunity and were fundamental to this success. Integrated racially diverse neighborhoods like Watts and Boyle Heights emerged and thrived along these transit corridors. But then the population surge from 320,000 in 19.

Two more than 1.2 million in 1930, this included tens of thousands of African-Americans from the deep south. Now the freeway system in Los Angeles was designed to cut through the heart of these communities. President Franklin Roosevelt’s new deal, created a grading system to assess the desirability of residential communities.

There was newer most desired, which was green, older, still desirable, which was blue in decline, which was yellow and quote unquote hazardous. [00:11:00] Which was red. Now a key factor that influenced these grades was race. A racially homogenous population was considered desirable, but only so long as that race was white.

And non-immigrant communities with African-American Asian, native American and Latino residents typically received at best a C grade and most commonly a degrade. The presence of Jews could also reduce a community’s grade white immigrant populations, such as Slavs Greeks, Italians would negatively impact a community is great.

If those populations made little efforts to distance from neighbors who were people of color. So suddenly states in the nation are flushed with millions and millions of dollars to build freeways. And they’re looking at these red lining maps and going, Hmm, where should we build freeways? What areas are in need of rehabilitate?

When looking at redlining maps, they can [00:12:00] easily identify a community like Boyle Heights, which was red lined and say, okay, here’s a quote unquote, slum that needs to be cleared. Let’s put a highway here. Context, sugar hill became an icon of black Hollywood acting as the home to stars. Like how do you McDaniel Louise beavers, Joe Lewis, Ray Charles White residents got upset.

And sued. So black residents began organizing, they won, it went all the way to the Supreme court and it paved its way for the fair housing act. 20 years later. However, in the early 1960s, the Santa Monica freeway was constructed through the middle of sugar hill. Also in the 1960s, Beverly Hills residents protested the construction of what was known as the Beverly Hills freeway.

They used much of the same arguments as sugar hill residents, that their homes were historic, that their community was valuable. Erica Vila [00:13:00] professor at UCLA said of this, the Beverly Hills one sugar hill lost. And that gives you a very clear indication of who was able to fight freeways and who is not.

This is why Ellie’s freeways are symbolic sites of protest. The freeway system, displaced generations of people of color. What was the first big dream that you remember having, you said that you were being prepared, this foundation was preparing you, what was the first big dream 

[00:13:35] Anthony Sparks: that you had? The very first big dream I had was you will laugh because this is so not who I am now was to be a scientist.

Ah, 

[00:13:48] Joe Towne: I can see that. Tell me more, what area of science, where you fascinated by all of it or? 

[00:13:53] Anthony Sparks: Well, the funny thing is I had never had a real science class when I was talking about, I think I might want to be a scientist. [00:14:00] I now understand that it makes sense given who I am in the past, I pursued that. What I was saying was I wanted to discover things and build things.

Like I think that in the word I came up with was in the thing, the, how that translated when I was eight years old with scientists. I had a chemistry set. I just love mixing and playing with things, you know, like many kids do. And so that’s what it meant. And then I took my first real science class when I started at this very rigorous school.

And I was like, I’m not doing that.

And more over, I think what it was about, it was about curiosity. I want to know. I literally just gave a lecture to my kids this morning. I’m sure they just love hearing this this morning. And I said that I can’t, I cannot abide being around people who are not curious, like it makes my skin

like to be around people [00:15:00] who are not curious about some, not necessarily the same things I’m interested in, but about some aspect of the world in which they live or the world that they wish they lived in. And so I think what I was expressing was not so much a career, which definitely turned out not to be my gift in terms of being a scientist, but curiosity.

Wondering, um, how do you mix things up? How do you build things? How do you make an impact, ultimately, which is what I think scientists do, right? How do you make an impact on the world? So in some ways it’s just the word scientist or the, you know, with me having very limited exposure, not ever having met a scientist at that point, that was how it came out.

So that was, was, was that love it, 

[00:15:49] Joe Towne: because one of the things that I observe about you is that systematically you have often embodied someone who wanted to [00:16:00] figure out how things work towards that big dream that you described at the beginning and a newspaper article. And I know that you went to that fancy school and you won several.

Awards national words in high school, two goals for speech. I believe one silver for acting. 

[00:16:22] Anthony Sparks: Oh my God. You went into the archives. He was sought 

[00:16:25] Joe Towne: after, right? Several programs wanted you and you chose USC in Southern California. And I’m curious, what did you come in hoping to learn or experience and what surprised you that you came out knowing 

[00:16:41] Anthony Sparks: me choosing to go from south side Chicago to USC?

Uh, particularly at that time in the early nineties, I think it was, you know, I think a lot of people from chicken, you know, USC and so recruiting and enrolling a lot of people now from Chicago, I feel like it was a little less. So then people thought I was [00:17:00] definitely headed either to like Northwestern or NYU or Carnegie Mellon.

Those were places that I was looking at. And I had had some experience with those places having spent done, having been fortunate and blessed to do some summer programs, 

[00:17:14] Joe Towne: but you were a chair of bright at 

[00:17:15] Anthony Sparks: Northwestern Northwestern. And then I was in Carnegie Mellon’s pre college program the summer before my senior year, uh, for their theme, you know, they’re very prestigious theater program and had the great fortune of being accepted into that Carnegie Mellon program, right after like, as I started my senior year of high school.

So it was like a really tremendous confidence booster for me as a, a theater person, as a theater, as an accurate, at that time to go through my senior year of high school already with like, you know, arguably the top program admittance already in my back pocket. So then why USC? I had never [00:18:00] even been to college.

And that was part of it. My mother had drilled into me that school should be an adventure. College should be an adventure. She had drilled into me. Those were not her words, but she was like, go away. You know, you have like go away. Don’t don’t stay. And so ultimately those other places began to feel almost like too easy to make that choice for me at that time, I don’t know that they would have been, I’m just, this is 17 year old, Anthony, you know, logic.

I felt a calling to like this adventure that somehow being in Los Angeles, going to USC, something completely that I literally could not even really imagine because I had never been west of the Mississippi. And when I decided to do this and we didn’t have money for me to come out here to look at it or anything like that.

I have one friend who was also a chair at Northwestern, who was [00:19:00] at USC in the theater school and school of dramatic arts now. And I literally called him up on a Sunday. I think he was like, probably have drunk. But I called him up and I was, I was like, Hey, it’s they call me sparking. And it was like, Hey Sparky.

I was like, tell me the pros and cons man. Cause I’m really thinking about doing this. And he ran it down for me. And I decided that I was going to go on this wild adventure. So I, so it was not only obviously the prestige of the drama program, uh, which has maintained if perhaps even increased since we were there.

But it was also, I’m going to go on a ride. If I do this, what surprised me was that when you decide to become a creative person or pursue your creativity and artists, is that there is no one right way to do it. And I think for me, I had built up in my head that you’re going to come here, you’re going to do four years straight.

You’re going to do. You know, [00:20:00] this is the first year that the second year, and then at the end of it, you are this like sort of fully formed sort of artist. It sounds ridiculous to say that now, because we’re older and we know better, but that’s very comforting to a 17, 18 year old kid who could go do other things I had academically, I could have done other things, but my heart was beating in this direction and the door was open, but it was also a huge risk.

So, you know, I had a lot of pressure from people. Did you want to be a lawyer? Don’t you want to, you know, be a certain type of businessman, you could do anything. And then, and I was like, no, I wanna, you know, like literally there were people in Chicago, they were like this boy, he could do anything. And he is like talking about Shakespeare.

Are you, you know, there was a certain aspect of that, like from people in my church, community and stuff like that, they were like, are you kidding me? You know, looking cause they’re looking through the lens of, of [00:21:00] you’re a capable black boy from a place where they say capable black boys don’t come from and, and please go out there and wave the flag and go make some money and build a business.

And, and all of that. And I’m like looking at this tap dance, you know,

so, but ultimately I think all of that also weighed on me too, in a way that was positive. And that has impacted the way that my career in life has gone, because I always felt a calling to pour whatever it is that I’ve done into a larger person. And that is something that didn’t, wasn’t like, oh, I crystallize that thought.

And I had that thought at 18 and some ways I felt when I was in my twenties as an artist in New York and stuff like that, a little ahead of my time at T at the time. And so what’s happening now [00:22:00] that I’m in my forties is that I feel like the things that I’ve been talking about him and interested in that was not that popular to talk about when I was 25.

Now I don’t have to make an excuse for why I want to talk about make the world a better place through your art or. You know, um, engaged in the world in ways that some people would call political or whatever, we’re putting your politics into your art or vice versa. It’s almost expected now. That’s what the currency of relevancy is now.

But for a long time, you could pay a very high price for that. And I do believe that I’ve had experiences where I have paid for that in the past, but the good news is, is that I’m still here. So back 

[00:22:46] Joe Towne: at USC, the first play I ever saw you do was a play called the Dutchman. That’s 

[00:22:52] Anthony Sparks: the first play you saw me do, sir.

And 

[00:22:55] Joe Towne: I’m curious, how did you come to choose that play? And I’m [00:23:00] wondering what was it? And you trying to 

[00:23:03] Anthony Sparks: say, it’s so funny, you know, that was one of the, and I don’t know if you recall this or not. That’s right. You and I, we met and we became. Thick as thieves, but it was like very suddenly, like, I remember that I remember the day you approached me and said hello to me.

Um, I think it was, I think we were at a bookstore. Wow. That was a real turning point. I read the play as a freshman year and herb shore, God rest his soul, his critical studies class. I read it my first semester of college. I read at the end of my first semester of college. I read detriment. And I was like, holy shit, I’d never read anything like that before.

So I’m 18. I understood enough about the play to know that I had been hugely impacted by reading it. And I didn’t understand it completely, but I understood the emotions behind it. It just spoke to some deeper part [00:24:00] of me that at that point had not been expressed creatively. There was an anger or rage there, there was a hopefulness in the beginning of it, that completely is shattered.

And I just was like, and it was the role of a young black male who, you know, I fit all of the sort of outward manifestations of the role, you know, you know, sort of this educated guy, smart guy trying to, and I was set on fire and I decided at the end of my first semester, freshman year, I’m doing this play before.

I’m doing this play. And so my junior year, uh, what they call it experimental at the time, I had been fortunate that I’ve been cast a lot in my first two years at USC, but I was always doing bigger shows on the big stage. And so I became for better or for worse, kind of a big actor, uh, you know, being sort of Broadway size actor who was doing classical material and all sorts of stuff.

And I wanted to do something a little [00:25:00] smaller and I wanted to do something that was personal and was scary. And that place was scary for me to go there. I think the play beat me, frankly, at that time I D I did not feel that I conquered that play. It was a very painful experience putting it up. Um, the actress and I, um, that I did it with, which was Lee, Alan Baker.

It was wonderful. It was asking us to tap into something that I think I was prepared for. I can’t say whether she was prepared for it or not, but it was a tough, tough play. We ended up screaming at each other and we had a falling out and she quit and then I quit. And then, you know, and I remember going to John Blankenship and I said, we just had the worst rehearsal ever.

We’re not doing the play. He was like, oh no, the play opens tomorrow night. You don’t understand, you don’t understand. She said this. I said this blah, blah, blah. And you know, just, [00:26:00] you know, drama, school drama. He’s like, oh no, th the show opens at eight o’clock tomorrow night. And then he was like, bye-bye honey.

You know? And I remember going to, um, uh, acting teacher at USC at the time, honest, amazing who I loved and adored. I told her what, you know, that we were having a tough time and we weren’t getting along and joining the play. And she said, Tony, Tony, Tony, Johnny, Johnny, Of course, you had a blow out doing the play.

She said that play is not about anger. Tony, that plays about something deeper. I was like, well, what is it about? She said, it’s about hate anger and hate are two different things. And you all are trying to push past the anger and get to a place where you’re expressing the possibility of hate. That’s tough.

So, yeah, it was going to be tough, you know, and we did it, [00:27:00] 

[00:27:00] Joe Towne: John and wind Blankenship earned a bachelor’s degree in design and directing from what is now Carnegie Mellon university in 1950. Followed by a master’s in fine arts and design and directing from Yale in 1943, he spent the next three years designing scenery, costumes and lighting both on and off Broadway.

First as assistant to designer Harry Horner, and then on his own, he began teaching and spent eight years on the faculty of Sarah Lawrence college in Bronxville, New York in 1955, he was offered a teaching position at USC, which lasted for over 50 years. John Blankenship also designed at the Tanglewood music festival in Massachusetts, the Guild opera company in Hollywood and the LA Jolla Playhouse.

He was author Ray Bradbury’s designer of choice for productions of his place. John was a mentor to a lot of people, including Anthony and me actors like John Ritter, Eric Stoltz, and Danny strong, [00:28:00] all went to Edinburgh with John. It was like this Rite of passage. By the time I met him, most people just referred to him as the old man.

He is believed to have brought the first university group to perform on the fringe of the Edinburgh international festival between 1966 and 2005, the company mounted 23 seasons on the fringe. He challenged actors. He pushed them beyond what they thought was possible for them. He had a crude sense of humor and an infectious laugh.

John was not for everyone, but his belief in an actor often help them become better artists. I spent four seasons at the Edinburgh fringe festival with John. I spent a summer with him in Paris. He produced my first play I ever wrote and encouraged me to write my own material. I will be forever grateful to John who passed away 12 years ago.

In 2009, 

[00:28:55] Anthony Sparks: you sounded like you liked the production job. I 

[00:28:59] Joe Towne: was so [00:29:00] moved and challenged by it. It was the first of many things I saw you do. I got, had the great privilege of seeing you on the being stage and pair of Oakleys and multiple other shows. And, you know, I want to brag on you for a minute. You won several awards at USC.

Uh, the LaVar Burton award, the Jack Nicholson award and the Ana being Arnold doctoral fellowship. So clearly your work as an artist was impactful and then you move across country. You get your first job out of college is at Williamstown Peter Hunt cast you. Then you’re at the public theater and you’re cast in a gender averse king Lear era.

You’re playing Cordelia. Viola Davis is playing Edgar. What stands out to you the most from that 

[00:29:58] Anthony Sparks: experience? Don’t forget, [00:30:00] Billy Porter is playing God. Oh my gosh, what a moment. So, so I always tell people the role in the TV space that launched Billy Porter, where we all know his name, which is pose like Billy was playing that part back in 1995.

And I was right there with him, you know, in this gender revised version of king Lear. And he was playing God rolling mile a day, was playing editor. And of course we were, he was Billy Porter, a working actor on Broadway and stuff, blah, blah, blah. Viola Davis was not that long out of Julliard, you know, gathering a bud, which you know, and then I literally was literally off the.

And, you know, found myself getting cast, uh, in New York doing this. So this was Billy Porter before he was Billy Porter and Viola Davis before she was born. Right. And so I always say to people, you never know who’s next to you when you’re working with people when you’re starting out and stuff like that.

So, you [00:31:00] know, you know, cherish those experiences and, uh, and, and, and, you know, you just never know who, who people, 

[00:31:08] Joe Towne: then you go on to be cast in stump at 22. Yeah. You do the show for five years. There’s a lot I could ask you about. You’ve talked quite a bit about it, but what I’m curious about today is what did that production teach you about what it takes to sustain.

Eight shows a week and beyond 

[00:31:31] Anthony Sparks: a lot. It taught me a lot about stamina that I think I still sort of carry with me today. Um, sometime mostly in healthy ways, but sometimes I will admit occasionally slipped into, um, because I have such stamina, I have had such stamina. Um, I have also sometimes allowed that to be used either used against me in unhealthy ways.

Okay. Cause I can tell you, like, you know, I’m a [00:32:00] guy who came through, you know, doing eight shows of a grueling show a week. I was young. I always tell people to take advantage of your youth. You know, I was young, but even that I did pay a price. I wasn’t always using my body properly at that time. And as you know, ended up in a couple of knee surgery.

But still recovered and still was able to do that show. I have some friends who did that show for like 15 years, plus I don’t know how they did it. God bless them. They are the real heroes of doc about stamina, but I did it hardcore as hard as I could for five years and I loved it. So he taught me about self care eventually the hard way, because I didn’t do it as well as I could have at the beginning.

I didn’t know to, you know, I became a fan of bodywork and massage therapy. I became a fan at that time of Pilates and things like that, um, in terms of, but also what it taught me was you can dig deeper and make something fresh [00:33:00] longer than you think you can. And I first, I sometimes call stop my first writing job because I played sort of the court gesture of the show and the directors, uh, and creators of the show.

Uh, trusted me and literally allowed me to change my performance pretty much every night within the framework of the show, of course. Um, but I did a lot of improvisation. And so by the time I left stomp, which was to transition into being a TV writer, I had been writing on stage every night, five years, and sometimes I fell flat on my face.

Sometimes I blew the roof off of the, of, of the audience, you know, and usually it was somewhere in between, you know, uh, you know, I would get immediate feedback. Did it land, was it funny? You know, was it impactful? You know? And so that turned out to be helpful to me, like say on a show like queen sugar, which I’ve run for the last few years, um, [00:34:00] because I can dig deep looking for story, like deeper than probably some other people would be inclined to do so.

And I’m, I’m, I’m proud of that. And I would say that I began to develop that actually doing eight shows. So we seven or eight shows a week and stuff.

[00:34:22] Joe Towne: Stump is a percussion group originating in Brighton United Kingdom in 1991, it was created by Steve McNicholas and Luke Cresswell stomp uses the body and ordinary everyday objects to create a physical theater performance using rhythms, acrobatics, and pantomime, Creswell, and McNicholas first worked together in 1981 as members of the street band Pooky snack and burger, which they performed at the Edinburgh festival throughout the early 1980s in the summer of 1991, the original stump show previewed at London’s Bloomsbury [00:35:00] theater and premiered at the assembly rooms in Edinburgh, where it became the guardians critics choice and won the daily expresses best of the fringe award in January, 1994, it received an Olivia nominal.

For the best entertainment award and won the best choreography award in a west end show in London. Stomp began its run at the Orpheum theater in New York city in February, 1994, winning an OB award and a drama desk award for most unique theater experience stump brought down the house at the academy awards produced by Quincy Jones.

Stomp later performed at the Acropolis in Athens and later on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at president bill Clinton’s televised millennium celebration stomp out loud, a 45 minute television special was produced for HBO and received four Emmy award nominations, a collaboration between stump and Jim Henson’s Muppets for Sesame street called [00:36:00] let’s make music was made as well in honor of its 10th anniversary at the Orpheum theater.

Second avenue at eighth street was officially renamed stomp avenue. Entertainment weekly included stomp in the list of the 50 best plays and musicals from 1983 to 2008. And in 2012 stumped performed as part of the closing ceremony at the London Olympics. I’m hearing so much in there, I’m hearing about self-care and the things we need to do to get our body ready.

But the idea of doing 500 to a thousand shows, yeah. It feels like the curiosity you were talking about of what else is there was a practice and it came about because of this trust in this environment. And I was fortunate enough to see you in that show. I want to say that was the first show that I had ever seen that many times.[00:37:00] 

[00:37:00] Anthony Sparks: Yeah. 

[00:37:01] Joe Towne: Because I’d been in a lot of plays, but not in the audience. I’ve been fortunate to be to a Broadway show on a few occasions, but here I was watching you play and making discoveries, and I’ve seen you bring the house down and experiment. And I’m curious, cause I know a lot was happening at that time.

Right? I mean, you met your now wife while you you’re in New York, you were writing backstage, you wrote your first solo play ghetto punch, which I got to see. And then you started to think about film and TV as an actor. And I wonder in what ways were you seen for who you are and what you have to offer and in what ways were you not being 

[00:37:51] Anthony Sparks: seen?

I know that time in the mid and late nineties, I was not being seen at all for who I am and who I was [00:38:00] not even a little. And that was a problem. And that was a challenge. And it was a, at times painful what I’ve said before. And I’ll always say this because it’s true. But I was being told that I did not exist as a type, as a person, as a young black male in the TV and film space a little more, but still, not even that much in the theater space, in traditional theater space.

But, you know, because that is an art form that is often about stretching. And, you know, you know, I had enough of a skill set as an actor, particularly my facility with language and classics and stuff like that, where I could be cast and work, but in TV and film, it was either, you know, not somebody over the head.

Online order at that time, or there wasn’t much for you [00:39:00] except for maybe an independent film that came through every now and again, there just wasn’t the opportunity just wasn’t there. And it was really hard for me to admit that, because at first it just felt like personal failure. And then it was like, I’m not the only person having this conversation though.

Like other people are, and these are talented people, many people who have now found, you know, spots for themselves, um, or did for a while anyway, in a TV and film, but there just, it wasn’t there. And I was having a hard time at age 26, 27. I’m only 26, 27, which is like prime time. Like it’s ready for prime time, 26, 27, 28, like, okay, we’re getting ready.

Like an opportunity was decreasing. And I was like, I gotta be washed up at 28. Like that doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t make any sense. I was watching my wife who, a beautiful dark skin actor. [00:40:00] I was watching her. She had been fortunate to, you know, she went to NYU and the grad acting program. She came out of there.

She was immediately within a year, within six months. Really? He was on Broadway, you know, then she’s on Broadway again. And even she, there was this period where even she, we were both like, what is happening? Like we’re not even getting regional theater or like what is happening here. That was sort of a push for me to reconnect with some other things that I’ve been interested in.

And to remember that I had always been a person that was in sort of trying to engage on a larger level. So, and that began to push me towards writing. I didn’t want to wait until the bottom fell out of my acting career until then I was like, oh, and then I’ll write. I was like, look, I’m making a living doing this.

I’m still doing eight shows a week. There’s other spaces not opening up the way that I want it to. I don’t think me going back to school to get an MFA is the [00:41:00] answer. I don’t think, you know, I was like, no, this is not about I, yes, we can always be better. I was like, this ain’t about me being better. This is about something larger.

There’s something macro going on here. And the, my solution to dealing with that was I got to be a part of the creative conversation sooner. I got to build some stuff. I got to create some stuff I got to write. Um, because you’re telling me I don’t exist and I’m sitting right here. They’re telling me they don’t believe that this comes out of the south side of Chicago.

I’m like, but I do. And so do other people. I know lots of other people. I know. So I found myself having this, um, crises where I would be in an audition room with auditioning, generally speaking for a panel full of white people. Trying to convince them that I was their version of black. And so I went, wait a minute.

We’re not even determining what blackness is. There’s [00:42:00] a panel of white people that are doing that every day in rooms, all across the country, primarily in Los Angeles and New York who are using their limited exposure generally to tell me what blackness is and I’m the one living it and showing up in my authentic self.

And you’re saying that that doesn’t exist. It was a mind fuck on a level that I literally believe drives people crazy, has driven people crazy and still does. And I was like, I’m not going out like that. I am not going out like that. You know? So what can I. And make a living doing it. And the answer became right and produce, 

[00:42:43] Joe Towne: create space for yourself in the TV and film universe, the 

metaverse.

[00:42:50] Anthony Sparks: But then when you say my yourself, my S I and those like me. So it wasn’t the idea of when I fully embrace writing, it was not. So I could write myself a [00:43:00] role. It was larger than that. It was why some people who knew me and knew how driven I was as an actor at first, got a little bit of like whiplash, like, wait, you’re doing what now?

And to me, it was not whiplash to me. It was a part of a larger discussion that they may not have been aware that I was trying to have, which was about images, the quantity and quality of images, not just positive versus negative or bad versus good images, particularly of black. Instead of positive or negative, I would say full, full images and stories of who we have been, who we are and who we could be.

And so to me, the pivot to writing was as natural because it aligned with a purpose that I was going after as anything. So I remember when I got my first TV job, [00:44:00] which was on the show of the district, which was us, you know, there was an actor who, a wonderful actor named Sean Patrick Thomas is still in the business, of course.

And he was basically playing one of the few roles that was out there that I could have been casting. And somebody said to me in my first year, on the show, isn’t it hard for you to be writing on a show for a role that you could play and play? Well, and I was like, Nicole, I said, because. You know, the issue at that time, I think is less.

So now was, was, was actors were not thinking larger than just acting in terms of what the next role is. You know, you’re encouraged as an actor to think at that time, very narrow about you and how good you can be in. Did you get the part and did you, you, you, you, you, you, and there is a larger picture out there.

And I wanted to be a part of that larger picture conversation and writing and producing and television became the answer to that for me. [00:45:00] Um, as well as the answer to the practicality of making a living, you know, as well, I’m not opposed to that. I’m not one of these Pollyannas who don’t think that you don’t have to make decisions sometimes based on just how you survive.

I grew up way too, um, working class or poor to ever kind of. Embraced that kind of privilege because I did take some blow back at the time in New York, amongst sort of the downtown artists circles. I was very open about the fact that I want, that I had gotten interested in television. And you should have seen, I shall not name names cause they are still around.

You should have seen some of the looking down your nose backstage at the public are looking down your nose, you know, at the downtown, when they would hear that, like, is this guy trying to do TV? Like he’s like, he’s not legit. He’s not pure. Like I was getting those, those sort of vibes and stuff from people, people who, by the way now are trying to work in television twenty-five years later.

So I do, [00:46:00] I do take a little bit of like a little bit, there’s a little shade in there. I’ll admit.

I was like, oh, okay. Oh, so, you know.

But, yeah, 

[00:46:17] Joe Towne: I’m really hearing that the pain of not being able to be the fullest artists, you could be the fullest human, the fullest creator sparked the desire to create your way through and out. Once again, there’s this moment where a pivot happens, right? You leave the successful show, you get injured, you leave the show, you travel across the country, track down a relative.

You didn’t know you had and rent a couch for four months while you take a big swing. Yep. So what were you seeking? [00:47:00] 

[00:47:00] Anthony Sparks: I was seeking a way in, at that point and I was seeking a way up and I was seeking. It was, it was time for my next act. I got into the Warner brothers writers workshop. I got into another program as well.

I had had enough things happen positively for me too, for me to know that this was perhaps a legitimate way forward. I was seeking two things. I was seeking work just on a practical bit level, but I was also seeking to, I was starting around that time to also ask the question, what is all this for? I had worked so much while at the same time, like every other performer getting a lot of nos that as an artist and as a black man, I was starting to ask myself, am I going to spend the rest of my life?

Having other people have absolute say over what my life looks like, [00:48:00] I’m having a. As I was like, as I was trying to articulate and define what adulthood meant to me, what manhood meant to me, what black manhood meant to me. I was literally having like this existential sort of like, I wouldn’t say crisis, but conversation where I was like this business is trying to tell me what black people is.

And my job right now is to somehow fulfill that is to become somebody else’s idea of what it is to be me. And I’m going to beg for that for the rest of my life. I don’t think so. We got to do something else. We got to expand. I was also beginning to ask serious questions about what role does the image making industry, which is what TV and film is play in larger society.

And obviously these questions have become much more urgent [00:49:00] in the last few years. But I have been trying to engage with that question and figure out a way through it and make it work for me and my creativity almost since the beginning of my career. I’m grateful that I don’t have to explain that anymore because that was something I had to explain to people, you know, for years, but I, I don’t anymore.

People get it. Now. That is what eventually led to the PhD to pursue the PhD. I was like, I need a space to think through these issues to think through this intellectual and creative project that we call show business or entertainment, which is really actually the business of creating the lens through which we live our lives in our society.

But as the turn of the century happened, it started the answer became clear to me, like I think. I should carve out some [00:50:00] space and time to go do this PhD thing. It was different from what I thought it was going to be, but it ultimately ended up being very, very impactful to me. And as a black person also, like, there’s like, you’ll hear two things with me.

Like I talk about purpose and stuff like that. Also talking about like the practical side of things. That’s the poor south side kid in me who can’t like, be like, oh, let’s just go and run through the fields and just think about, you know, come to it. It was like, yeah, I can do that. But I also got to pay some bills.

And so, and I don’t have, you know, a mommy or daddy who can do a, for me, it became sort of this practical thing. So I’m always interested as a black person as like artists. And it’s like, and I’m going to pick up an extra credential too, and we’ll see where that leads to. So at the time I was literally walking up, I didn’t know, there was a thing, such a thing as an artist scholar or a scholar artist at that time.

That’s ultimately, if you had to put a late. Now on what it is I was interested in and what it is that I am and what I do, [00:51:00] that’s ultimately what I landed at. But I didn’t know. There was no one to mentor me at that time into like this exists, you know, or it can exist or you can make this work for you.

And, um, American studies and ethnicity at USC, you know, gave me an opportunity. To do that work. And it became one of the most enriching experiences of my, of my life. And in many ways it was difficult. It was hard. I didn’t agree with all of it all the time, but I met tremendous people in scholars and artists and activists, and they poured into me, you know, um, when it would have been easy to walk away because I was kind of an unconventional guy.

So, you know, during Kondo, who was my advisor and is, um, an anthropologist, uh, and a scholar and also a writer and an artist in her own. Right. You know, she’s, she’s a tough scholar. She’s, she’s, she’s a tough lady, uh, lover. Um, but you know, people told me when I [00:52:00] was sort of mashed up to work with her, like, oh, you ain’t ever going to get your PhD out of this one?

I mean, they just told me straight out, they’re like, forget it. She’s tough. She’s not going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yes. We, you know, went back and forth here and there, but ultimately. She respected what I was doing, respected my intellect and my creativity. I had to learn to respect what she had to offer and what the academy has to offer, because I was very skeptical of it.

I went into it, but I was also a little skeptical, you know, like, what is all this theory? I was like, I’d like to keep it on the ground. I keep it real, like what’s going on? You know, all of that, you know, and ultimately I realized that those two that’s a black and white point of view that wasn’t serving me.

And ultimately they had a lot to offer me. 

[00:52:48] Joe Towne: This image is coming to mind of a river where on the one side you have this creative, what’s possible almost a theorial energy. And the other [00:53:00] side is like practical and structured and results oriented. And it’s like the flow that happens between the two banks of the river.

Is this dance you’re describing. Do you have a philosophy. Like, or a quote that you live 

[00:53:16] Anthony Sparks: by? I think I have a couple, one is from Shakespeare to thine own self be true. I remember when I first read that when I was a teenager and I’m not sure I knew what it meant, but I did write it down and I was like, this is me.

I’m gonna do this.

Um, but also there are a couple, so there’s two that self be true. There’s also sort of believing in God and trusting that there is a plan for my life and that when that plan has been fulfilled, my life will then be over on, on this earth, on this plane, you know, and trying to believe and trust in that.

And that’s easier said than done, you know? Um, but that is [00:54:00] basic and sort of foundational to who I am that has led me to the question at times, if we want to talk about Korea, And purpose where I ask, I have I’ve had enough tough experiences as anyone who’s lasted in show business for any period, any real period of time.

Um, at all, I’ve had, I’ve had some very, I’ve had some beautiful experiences and I’ve had some tough rock you to you’re in the pit of your stomach kind of experiences as well. But one of the questions I’ve come back to pretty regularly is why do I have a career? You know, there’s a lot of narcism and our industry, a lot of destructive narcissism, a lot of malignant narcissism.

And, you know, it’s very tempting to be like, I have a career because on the shit, that’s why I have a career, you know, whatever. Well, one of the things you’ve learned, um, when you’re blessed to be quote unquote, deemed good enough to do something as a professional [00:55:00] is that you hit a point where a lot of people are talented.

And if you’re being honest with you, A lot of talented people, not all of them have careers. Some of them have careers that are quote unquote, bigger, more lucrative than yours. So don’t, and some don’t have them at all. And that has nothing to do with whether they’re talented or whether they’re smart or even whether they’re hardworking.

Cause that’s the other one people will. I just want I crying baby. That’s what I do have a seat. There are plenty of people who work hard, who are talented to grind, who don’t get the breaks, who don’t have the opportunity. So why do you have a career? Why do I get to have a career is a question that asks that that motivated.

I had to come to learn that I do not have a career. Me personally, not that I can’t do this so that I can do 10 seasons of MCIs. That’s not the purpose of my career. I would love if you listen in CVS with love to have 10 [00:56:00] years of man CIS money, let’s go. I have three kids. I got to go to college. You know, I’m not too good for what?

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying, what is it that I have to say, what is endemic to my voice? Why are the opportunities that I have that seem to come to me? Why is it those opportunities and not other opportunity? And that to me gets back to sorta tonight on self be true. One of the things I struggled with when I was in graduate school is that you have to learn how to speak, you know, what some of us call a doctoral BS, you know, it’s like a different language as a theoretical language, as a language, as a language of practicum as well.

And dah, dah, dah, dah. And I resisted it at first. Not because it was hard and because it was hard to learn and to learn how to deploy it is hard and blah, blah, blah. But I resisted it because I thought that it was trying to take me away from the ability to be able to talk to the people I love and care [00:57:00] about.

And I was like, you are not going to remove me so far from my experience in the, especially the great parts of it that my mother looks at me and I’m a stranger. So my litmus test for me was always, can I still talk to them? My mama with a sixth grade education from Mississippi who, you know, like, I will learn this language.

I will learn this theory. I will use it. I will deploy it. I will do all of that. As long as you tell me that there was some way for me to translate all of that into a conversation at the Thanksgiving table that is about including and not excluding. Okay. Same thing with theater. One of my, my wife and I, my wife, um, Anita, who is also now an associate Dean at our, uh, undergrad institution.

One of the things that we talked about drives us. And I take theater to task for this. And I’m glad about the conversations that’s happened since the murder, George Floyd, [00:58:00] um, in the theater space, uh, because it is long overdue and is in vital

[00:58:11] Joe Towne: back in may mark the one-year anniversary since the death of George Floyd, the world was deeply impacted by the video that surfaced his cries out for his mother. We have seen the trial of Derek Chauvin he’s been sentenced and is currently in prison. What else has changed in the world? We went on a social media pause conversations were started elsewhere.

Introspection calls for listening and educating ourselves. Hashtags were created. Other hashtags were put on to lung signs support for black owned businesses increased. We bought books about race and racial justice. Maybe we read some of them. Protests broke out everywhere in the world and solidarity for justice, not just for [00:59:00] the families of George Floyd, the, for all the families who deserve justice.

So what’s changed. We’ve removed some Confederate statues. People became more active politically last fall. Tolerance for inequity and injustice has gone down in the workplace. Art is reflecting these deeper questions, being wrestled with, in communities of color and intersectionally. I do know that I have the privilege to stop thinking about race.

Like I can take a day off, but black Americans and people of color do not have that luxury. We probably all have some good intentions. I’m making an assumption, but if you are here, I’m including you in that well-intentioned. But are we paving the road to hell together? You know, the road that’s paved with good intentions.

What is our responsibility in being better around racial equity and racial justice? The conversations [01:00:00] we are having, the stories we are centering starting in our own lives and homes and workplaces, but then in our art, our media platforms, what we spend our money on, where we spend our time, what we share with others, what is your call to action?

I know the world has changed. How are we making it better? 

[01:00:24] Anthony Sparks: I can’t stand. I’m being real basic right now. I can’t stand motherfuckers who use theater theater, which at its core is about community coming together as a cudgel to mark themselves as part of the cultural. 

[01:00:42] Joe Towne: We are separate from, we are not all in this together.

It’s not a place to come around. 

[01:00:48] Anthony Sparks: It’s a place to mark myself as better. And that runs deep, deep and the professional theater that was perhaps the biggest disappointment for me to get back to [01:01:00] an earlier question. You asked about what I discovered when I was making my living and professional theater, and I consider myself a theater based part is still of, it will always love it, but what the profession of it has allowed is for it to be this hoity, toity, I, you know, marker of what is real and what is not, who has real talent, who is, who has the right to participate in this and who doesn’t, which is often the way through which theater, uh, practices become incredibly racist.

For me, it’s an, it was an insult to my core because I had come into theater and had been brought into theater as this is the specialized space. And when I say theater, now I’m also talking about artistic practice in general being in TV or film, but this is in particular theater. This is the space that we can all get [01:02:00] together and claim for ourselves.

And for those that want to do it, anybody who wants to do it and create connections and openings for people to connect with people, how dare you then as a professional or as an ethos in the theater, then take this thing that was literally about people coming together at the end of the day, at the end of the hunt, to tell each other stories.

And turn it into an exclusionary practice. How dare you

[01:02:32] Joe Towne: now, sometime around 400,000 years ago, humans learned to fully control fire. This breakthrough radically changed our diets because we can now cook food, but it also transformed our culture as well. A study of evening campfire conversations by the Jew who on people of Namibia and Botswana suggested by extending the day.

Fire allowed people to unleash their imaginations and tell [01:03:00] stories rather than merely focused on mundane topics. Stories told by firelight, put listeners on the same emotional wavelength, eliciting, understanding, trust and sympathy. The world’s first theater originated in ancient Greece. The first plays were performed in the theater of Dionysus built in the shadow of the Acropolis in Athens at the beginning of the fifth century.

But theaters proved to be so popular. They soon spread all over Greece drama was classified according to three different types or genres, comedy tragedy, and Cedar place wealthy citizens would sponsor the plays by paying a tax called the Correggio and just like pisses Stratus, the tyrant who established the city day in Asia to enhance his own popularity.

Many of these wealthy patrons hope the success of the play they sponsored would provide them with a way into politics from the mid fifth century, BCE entrance was free back [01:04:00] then the role of plays was moral, right and wrong. No wind dilemmas violence was not permitted on the stage. And the death of a character had to be heard from off stage and not seeing the role of American theater in the sixties and 70.

We’re wrestling with some important societal questions, whether we’re talking about the gorilla theater of San Francisco, the theater of the oppressed or the black arts movement live theater helps to promote social discourse, dialogue, and potential social change. Theater is a cultural phenomenon that demands that society examines itself in the mirror.

Now there’s an idea that theater is for only the ruling elite with ticket prices costing the same as a month of rent. What role does the theater take on for us now today? Does that mean that the fire we all gather around are our family dinner tables that only seats a handful, perhaps its movie screens or our television or [01:05:00] smartphone.

But the point of gathering around these spaces are designed for us to wrestle with life’s biggest questions. 

[01:05:08] Anthony Sparks: That is something that, you know, I respond very, um, as you can probably hear very strongly. So anything for me, and it was a personal journey for me because sometimes I was too absolute in this, but it became a personal journey for me that anytime someone wanted to use acknowledge the fact that they thought I was bright, acknowledged the fact that they thought I was talented, but then use that as a way to separate me from people.

I was not down with it. I was not down with that. And I’m still not down with that. I 

[01:05:42] Joe Towne: spoke to your philosophy. And one of the things that I’m hearing in there is there’s this confidence and it’s also tempered it’s tempered by humility. God’s plan with, can I still communicate at the [01:06:00] Thanksgiving table with my mom?

There’s this lid that balances both the fire and also not letting things get separate to the point where you separate yourself and others try to separate you. Cause 

[01:06:15] Anthony Sparks: to do that is to on some level, say that what you have said about my people behind closed doors is true and I’m the exception and it feels good that I’ve been exceptionalized.

But if my being accepted into your space is defacto me saying that what I come from ain’t shit. I’m not down with 

[01:06:38] Joe Towne: that. Yeah. It’s supremacy thinking. It’s supremacy 

[01:06:41] Anthony Sparks: thinking and it snakes its way into our artistic practice to such a degree that, um, some of the most frustrating people you can deal with at times, When you’re trying to talk about, you know, white supremacy or practices that encourage that, or that are derived from that.

Some of the most frustrating [01:07:00] people you can talk to are people in the arts who are convinced of their own liberation, meanwhile, committing acts and practices that do nothing or do more harm than good. And it’s a very tough conversation, but it’s one that has to happen, but I did not get into theater because, and, and creativity and TV so that I could just feel better than other people.

So 

[01:07:28] Joe Towne: I’m really getting the sense that the deeper purpose for you is lifting up everyone around you. And when I look at what you said at the beginning about being blessed and just getting started, there’s two tracks, there’s personal vision and career moments. You’re living a dream that you imagined for yourself, this beautiful relationship that you’re in your family, getting paid to do what you love, contributing to the cultural [01:08:00] conversation, lifting people up around you, and you’re not done yet.

You’re currently hold this position at queen sugar. You’ve been there for multiple years. Why is it such a dream job? How are you seeking to shift the lens through which we 

[01:08:16] Anthony Sparks: see the world? So I’ve been in queen sugar since, uh, right after Ava DuVernay created the series second season. Uh, no first they won, came in first season.

They won, they won, they won was there. And, um, eventually, you know, was tapped to, you know, run the show as show runner and head writer and executive producer. And I’m very proud of that time. So it’s been six seasons I chose to move on about a year ago. So, uh, as we started our sixth season, I made the decision.

First of all, I thought it was the last season. It may not be, but either way, I was like, uh, this is the last season I’m gonna and my last season. [01:09:00] So that’s what I chose to do. And so now I am moving on into my new project, but. I’ve never worked anywhere longer creatively than I have worked at queen sugar.

I even, I mean, I did five years of stomp. It is six years and six seasons at queen sugar 

[01:09:16] Joe Towne: and people that may not know you had written it in the entire season, five global pandemic happens. You rewrote season five and then turned right around and wrote season six. Yeah, it was insane all in one year, all during a pandemic kids that have, 

[01:09:35] Anthony Sparks: it was crazy.

And while dealing with the, uh, uncertainties of what it meant to shoot in a pandemic, what it meant to write a TV show in a pandemic, dealing with that and dealing with the stresses that come with that both internally and externally. Um, it was a lot, it was a lot, I’m very proud of the work that me and my staff did [01:10:00] to pull that off.

And as a result, Gave that show longer life, frankly, you know, not every show came back that went down after the pandemic struck, not every show came back and made it on the air, much less, made it on the air with new, more vital material and continue to keep going. So I’m very proud of the work that I did this three and a half years as show runner of that show.

And I don’t know how long it’s going to run, whether it’s going to run another season or multiple seasons after that. But I’m proud of the work that I did very much so in that my staff did. And one of the reasons I think that the work that I did on that show was impactful to its audience was because of some of the things that I’m talking about because I refuse, I would do my best to create those stories and write them through a lens of love and respect as well as challenge the audience, as opposed to, I’m going to look down my nose and tell you what’s good for you sort of thing [01:11:00] before.

The characters on this show are, are my mother where my mother, my mother passed a few years ago. And so I always wrote that show as a kind of tribute to her and to people like her. And that was able to fuse with, uh, the original vision of Ava DuVernay. And together then we ended up doing really, really wonderful work.

This is a show that when my mother passed, I was working on and literally I’m in her hospice care room, you know, holding her hand with my left hand and rewriting scripts with my right hand. And there were days where I was kind of upset that I did that because of like, you can’t get that time back. And then the other point of view is that he was so deeply in love with what, uh, what I was getting to do on that show.

And I was so much writing in from a place of, uh, love and trivial. [01:12:00] That at least I’m very happy that when she left this earth, she saw her son, her baby boy, doing something that was validating her experience. And she had not necessarily been validated in her life through love and relationships and, and through a world, which said that she had less value because she was a single mother with all these kids and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And so every time I walk into a room now, um, whether it’s a writer’s room, whether it’s a meeting with producers, whether it is, uh, pitching or selling a show to, you know, big muckety mucks at the networks and studios. All those people in those experiences, they are with me. And so I’m able to walk into that room with a certain sense of confidence.

And like, this is what it is that I want to do. Do you want to be a part of it? Do you not? If not, that’s cool. I’ll go over here, you know, blah, blah, blah. But I’m not apologizing for who I am, where I come from and what I represent [01:13:00] and what I want to represent. 

[01:13:01] Joe Towne: I’ve heard you say that one of the things that your mom imbued in you is that you belong in any room you go into, and I can’t think of anything more beautiful to your relationship and her legacy of writing yourself and for her as a parallel to the stories that you’re telling on that show and sure, whatever else you’re showing, you’re creating.

What are we doing well as an industry? When I think about the Bechtle tab, And I think about, you know, the basic measures of CF women are fairly represented in a film and how Gina Davis created her inclusion quotient. And I think about the Shonda effect in casting. And I think about the Ava rule with regards to directing on queen sugar,[01:14:00] 

the 

[01:14:00] Joe Towne: Bechdel test has three basic requirements for a movie. It has to have at least two women in it. They have to talk to each other and they have to discuss something besides a man. Gina Davis wants to raise awareness about gender bias in media. So the Gina Davis inclusion quotient or GDIQ measures equal representation in film, television, advertising publishing, and the media Ava DuVernay.

Hired only women to direct the 13 episodes of owns critically acclaimed. First season. She wasn’t the first to do this. The first season of Amazon’s transparent was the first TV series to be directed entirely by women creator. Jill Salloway helmed seven of the 10 episodes and Nisha Sinatra handled. The other three other series have been directed entirely by one female director.

Ava DuVernay is the first series creator and showrunner to hire seven women of various [01:15:00] backgrounds. Five of whom had never directed episodic television. When Ava DuVernay set out to make queen sugar, the director of the Oscar nominated Selma and Netflix documentary 13th realized she wouldn’t have time to direct the entire show herself.

She says it wasn’t, let’s all find women. The names that popped up in her head were filmmakers she’d known and admired through the independent film festival circuit and other Hollywood circles. When DuVernay told executive producer Oprah Winfrey what she was thinking. Winfrey replied. Yes. Let’s do this two things.

One. Can you tell a brief story about Ava with regards to female directors and what’s the sparks quotient. 

[01:15:51] Anthony Sparks: Oh, wow. Okay. Well, first of all, in terms of kudos to the, uh, [01:16:00] initiative and, and to Ava, deciding to use queen sugar as a platform for discovering and giving opportunities to women directors, it is a little stunning that it took a small show on, you know, small in terms of, you know, when I say small, I mean, in terms of not being on.

ABC NBC, you know, when it’s traditional broadcast networks, um, but a show with a big heart on a smaller network, um, a new network to kick that conversation off, I think is always to be, I think, Avis to always be applauded for that. And for maintaining that, uh, initiative is sort of stunning that it hadn’t happened before.

And I think that we should never go back to an era where people would literally look at their [01:17:00] director’s list. And if you had 22 episodes, you had 22 white male directors. Like what, like really, we were like, we can’t do that. Uh, and so me figuring out and being part of. Figuring out how to write a show at the quality of queen sugar that allow to, uh, for those directors to be, come in and be set up for success is something that I am, uh, proud to have been a part of as a writer, producer and showrunner, the sparks quotient.

It’s funny. I just turned in, I just turned in the script and my new show that Disney yesterday, and I was talking with my producing partners. They had given me some really tough notes, uh, and one of the earlier passes of it. Uh, and, uh, and their notes actually weren’t wrong, but I got, I was a little prickly about it.

And the reason I was a little prickly mad, it was because I’m thinking of other [01:18:00] things that they are not thinking about. So for example, at the center of the show that I’m creating for Disney called choir Disney, plus is this platonic relationship between a young man, 29, 30 years old, currently a black man.

And a, uh, black, uh, young lady who’s 16 or 17 years old. That’s the core of the series. It is a challenging relationship, but it was a healthy one that is grounded in some serious, serious love. Okay. At one point I resisted doing some things with that lead black male character that I ultimately should do because it works better dramatically, but I resisted it for a while.

It took me a while to come around to it. And the reason is, is because the images of black men and their ability to be vulnerable and their ability to love both each other and their family and their communities and those around them has just been so lacking traditionally and [01:19:00] television. So one of the things, and you see this in this last season, my last season on queen sugar, if you’re watching the sixth season, you’re seeing basically a season about black men loving each other.

Or trying to love each other in a variety of different ways. You see it to Hollywood, you see it in Hollywood and you see it in his ability to be expansive towards this little boy that, um, he has discovered and it bringing up the question, um, of children. Um, and, and what does his legacy look like without children?

Um, you see it in the Micah storyline where, you know, probably by the time this podcast airs. Audience, we’ll see more of where we’re headed with that, where it becomes a question of how close can you be with another male, another black male in this case, and have it be seen as healthy by society or not have it be not having it [01:20:00] seen through this sort of suspicious lens of what’s wrong, you know, blah, blah, blah, or have it be sexualized in some sort of way.

And having the character as a character, does this season ask questions about who they are and come out with on the other side of it, with an answer or not with an answer and have whatever the ambiguity of that answer be. Okay. Like that storyline is absolutely. I, I think certainly in terms of black television is probably a little groundbreaking where we end up with that storyline.

I’m very proud of that. So this theme of, of black men being able to. Fully human in their vulnerability and their ability to love, I think is probably a recurring theme for me. And so if there’s an Anthony Sparks quotient, I don’t think that’s all of it. I think there’s some other things that are also recurring things for me, which we can talk about if you want, but that is one of them.

And so I said to my [01:21:00] producing partners on this new show at Disney, I said, I think we have an opportunity here. Um, and success, we get this thing on the air where you’ve not seen a relationship like a platonic love relationship between a black man and a younger black woman that is clearly and completely about that.

Why is that important? I’m going to tell you something a little disgusting right now when my daughter turned 12 and 13 and started going through the emotional peaks and valleys that 12, 13, and 14 year old girls off and go. And that 12 and 13 year old black girls who go to school in largely white environments and some of the things that they’re dealing with it, they go through, I, as I do, you know, I’m a reader, I’m an information seeker.

I’m curious about the world. I was like, I need somebody help me, you know, because I want to be able to support my daughter and dah, dah, dah, dah. And so I went to the internet one day and I [01:22:00] Googled daughter, why did I do that? I don’t know if it’s still the same. You could do it now and probably get the same thing.

I think Google has finally sort of started because of books like oppression, algorithms of oppression and things like that have started to kind of suppress some of these, um, very negative, very, uh, uh, pejorative sort of search results. But basically I got a page full of porn by simply entering the terms.

Black father blackmail. Thinking I’m going to get search results, relationship, advice about relationships and about how you like whatever you would get. If you did, you know, just father, daughter relationships. No, I got the most disgusting pages of porn as the first results that pop up. And I said, oh, well, I knew society thought XYZ about us, but damn I, whoa.[01:23:00] 

So that has an impact on you. If you are a creative person, an artist, a husband, and a father who loves his daughter. And that, that is the quality of images that are out there. And I intend as God is my witness. As long as I get to have a career, I will be pushing against that type of, um, decrepit thinking in the stories that I tell.

They will be entertaining stories. They will be dramatic. They will be challenging stories, but they will be stories that take on the fullness of who men are specifically black men, who women are specifically black women. There will be a, an element of edification and anything that I do, and it will be shot through and [01:24:00] created through a lens of love and love can be tough love, but it’s love.

[01:24:04] Joe Towne: I love that answer. I’m hearing a fullness, a richness, a complexness, and that really there’s a provocative nature that doesn’t necessarily provide all the answers, but stirs that. Uh, and expanded thinking for us to wrestle with. I think that’s beautiful. And I can’t wait to see where these stories lead.

Can we have fun for a few minutes? Sure. So you’re from Chicago. Let’s start with a controversial question who this is. This is more of a lightning round. So first thought that comes to mind who makes the best deep dish. 

[01:24:46] Anthony Sparks: I’m going to say something that I’m not supposed to say as a Chicago person. I’m not a fan of deep dish pizza.

Okay. 

[01:24:52] Joe Towne: Do you prefer, do you prefer New York? What’s 

[01:24:55] Anthony Sparks: your, I’m a fan of Chicago pizza. Don’t get it. Okay. [01:25:00] I’m a card-carrying member. I’m just saying my dirty little secret is I love our thin crust than our deep dish who makes the best one the best. I can’t say the best. I do like home run pizza. I do like, uh, Eduardo.

And then I have a soft spot in my heart for G or dominoes because we just went there so much after we would do school plays and stuff like that. That was our spot. And so like, I don’t know if it’s the best, but it makes me feel, I feel, I love it. 

[01:25:33] Joe Towne: Now I’ve got a short list. I can go check out.

Chicago style pizza usually refers to deep dish pizza, which is a thick pizza baked in a pan and layered with cheese fillings like meat and vegetables and sauce. In that order, the crust is usually two to three inches tall and get slightly fried due to the oil in the pan. According to Tim Samuelson, Chicago’s [01:26:00] official cultural historian.

There’s not enough documentation to determine with certainty who invented Chicago style, deep dish pizza. Some say it was invented by one of pizzeria Uno’s founders. But others contend. It was created by pizza chef Rudy, Mel naughty and or cook. Alice May Redmond stuffed pizza came along in 1974 when Nancy’s, and Giordano’s both opened their doors.

They claim that their recipes came from old family recipes from Italy of scar sheds or Easter pies. Chicago thin crust pizza features, cracker thin crust. That’s usually square cut and often loaded with fennel heavy sauce. Unlike New York style pizza Chicago’s thin crust is crispy and cannot be folded.

This is because dough is rolled, not tossed and cooked much longer to ensure that crunch a survey in 2013 indicated that while the most popular pizza topping and the rest of the U S is pepperoni [01:27:00] in Chicago, the most popular topping is Italian sausage. In addition to standard toppings, many local pizzerias also offer Chicago specific topping options, such as Italian, beef, and era.

All right, Anthony, first thing that comes to mind clapping on the one of the three 

[01:27:19] Anthony Sparks: don’t you let your friends clap on the women in the three. Why is that a friend? That’s not a friend friends. Don’t let friends clap on the one. 

[01:27:29] Joe Towne: True. True. Okay. Uh, Whitney M young magnet school 

[01:27:34] Anthony Sparks: changed my life. Love that place.

That’s my Alma mater. I went there from seventh through 12th grade. Here’s what I love about, and Whitney young is a little bit different now. It’s still an excellent, fantastic, amazing school, probably even better than when I went there. But what has changed, uh, is this, and so I’m grateful that I went there when I did Whitney, um, uh, is considered the [01:28:00] best, certainly one of the best schools almost in arguable public schools in Chicago.

When I was there, Whitney young was 50% black and it was the best school around that has made an indelible impact on me because what it did for me was I did not locate the notion of being the best outside of myself. Outside of people who look like me, and I didn’t really realize this until I got to undergrad.

And then even after undergrad, I was, you know, why am I able to do this? Or why do I not seem to be struggling with this issue that this other person is struggling with? And it was because I was in an environment that were excellent, looked, at least half of the people look like me. It’s a gift that I cannot even, I can’t even recreate it for my own kids.

I’m trying to support them and offer them [01:29:00] other things that are, that are valuable. So that school, at that time for me, was amazingly impactful. 

[01:29:10] Joe Towne: Incredibly notable people have gone and come through that school. 

[01:29:15] Anthony Sparks: Yeah. That make it a little bit hard for the rest of us to feel like we’ve achieved some things.

When Michelle Obama graduated from your high school. That’s cool. Also 

[01:29:24] Joe Towne: that you graduated from Anthony. What does the term blurred mean to you? 

[01:29:30] Anthony Sparks: I love that term. I’m so glad that it sort of entered the slang lexicon these last 10 years. So blurred for most people means black nerd now. And there’s a term that I embrace proudly and you can testify to this Joe, because who was the lead character in my first play in New York ghetto punch her ratio, the black nerd right now, actually the thing.

And I’m pretty fucking cool. I actually don’t think I’m a nerd in the traditional sense, [01:30:00] but I, I am in the sense and the reason I have always embraced that. In the creative space, being a nerd is because there was no room for black nerds. When I was growing up white people, we get to be all sorts of things, you know, and then it was like, for us, it was not so much.

And so I love it’s it’s me subtly also being a little, you know, trying to be a little progressive because if you are a black nerd, what you’re saying is that you lead with intellect and you lead with creativity. And that in our world is not really assign that to black men, it’s sports, sex, or, you know, deviance, you know, unkind.

And so for me to be able to nerd out on history or comic books, that’s what you’re learning out on or whatever it is. I love it. So, yeah. So 

[01:30:50] Joe Towne: I have twin black boys. What is the term black boy joy. 

[01:30:58] Anthony Sparks: Y I [01:31:00] do what I do to create. The space for possibility of black boy joy and black girl magic beautifully said the show that I’ve just created for Disney plus in many ways is underneath it all.

It’s a lot of singing and dancing. It’s a lot of cool stuff, you know, and stories that I’m excited to tell. But at the end of the day, the thrust of the story is about black kids. Being able to claim a space for childhood. That’s what the show is really about. And that sounds like, well, of course, but, uh, you know, there’s a whole body of literature from scholars and activists and educators that talks about the ways in which black children are robbed of their childhood.

So if I’m posting something. Online and I’m hashtagging black boy [01:32:00] joy with my sons or my daughter is just having fun, just posting, but it is also me going, I’m going to do my best as a parent, as a dad to make sure that they have, that you only get to be a child and young ones. And the fact that I am the son of a single mother from Mississippi, who became a mother at age 14 with no education, but the idea that I could turn around and be her son do the things I’ve done in order to create that 12, you know, hopefully 18 year period where my kids get to be kids.

Like I one, like you couldn’t give me an award. You couldn’t give me any. That to me exceeds the idea that my black children have had a book have had a [01:33:00] childhood in which they know joy. That’s how I 

[01:33:03] Joe Towne: roll. I love it. I’m so moved by what you just said. And I want to read something to you. It’s a quote. You may recognize it goes like this, right?

If you will, but write about the world as it is. And as you think it ought to be, and must be, if there is to be a world, write about all the things that men have written about since the beginning of writing and talking, but right. To a point, work hard at it, care about it. Write about our people, tell their story.

You have something glorious to draw a begging for attention. Don’t pass it up. Don’t pass it up. Use it. Good luck to you. The nation needs your gifts. Wow. 

[01:33:47] Anthony Sparks: Who’s had 

[01:33:48] Joe Towne: that. One of the first gifts you gave me was to be young, gifted and black. And that speech is Lorraine Hansberry’s speech given to reader’s digest [01:34:00] in 1964.

And I’m, I’m just curious to know first thing that comes to mind when you think about that, because it’s the through line to everything that you’ve been describing in this conversation. 

[01:34:14] Anthony Sparks: Well, you’ve reminded me where I then sort of in my own sort of paraphrasing got that from the great, great Lorraine.

Hansberry’s my God. So to sort of answering a question I answered before, but I will re answer is so what is, you know, an Anthony Sparks quotient, uh, in my work is, is that I write about the world as I find it. And I write about the world as. To be. And I do that unapologetically. I ain’t got no problem doing that.

[01:34:44] Joe Towne:

I think that might be the answer to my next question and got two more. And then I want to let you go, which is what is something that you do better than most people?

I know it’s challenging because I’m asking [01:35:00] you to go there. 

[01:35:01] Anthony Sparks: Embrace think I embrace people pretty well better than, than most people like where they are when I meet them. I think I, I think I do that pretty well. It’s something that I’m at least conscious of working on. You probably 

[01:35:18] Joe Towne: mean that emotionally, intellectually.

I also think you give arguably world’s greatest hugs, so you’ll be embraced by Anthony Sparks 

[01:35:30] Anthony Sparks: on all levels. Thank you, man. 

[01:35:34] Joe Towne: You had one more thought towards the end of there, and I want to make sure that you get, 

[01:35:38] Anthony Sparks: no, I think I’m specifically talking as you can hear about a quality of personhood versus a skillset or something, you know, so relationships matter to you.

It would be incredibly arrogant of anyone.

I have a seat. You can’t say that, [01:36:00] but, um, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m interested in people and relationships and if those are people that I can make something awesome with, or we can help each other and support each other in our creativity course, that’s great. But at the end of the day, It’s connection. It’s it’s people, it’s human.

Like to me, like, like making a TV show to me is almost just an excuse to get a bunch of kind of weirdos together and see what happens

on 

[01:36:31] Joe Towne: the flip side of that question. What’s something that you’re working to get better at. 

[01:36:36] Anthony Sparks: I am challenged in certain areas of fatherhood because it’s challenging number one, um, and parenthood, but also because I haven’t really seen it done. I’m a pioneer in my own life, in that space up close. I have plenty of love, lots of [01:37:00] brothers, lots of father figures and uncles or whatever, but I, but, so there are times where I am learning the power of my voice and that a whisper is better than a shit.

Because I sometimes don’t know the own power of my voice. And then sometimes, you know, my children’s faces or emotions will show me, oh, you like take it down 50%. You know, I would extend that also to being a husband that I’m just constantly working on being, I do believe that I am a good husband and father, but I believe that I am constantly being challenged to be better in those areas.

And that being the best that I can be, uh, in those areas is probably the greatest thing that I could ever do. There’s no such thing as perfection obviously, but, um, I’m doing my best [01:38:00] or what to do my best so that my kids and my community, not just necessarily those that I fought. But whatever communities I touch.

So when I say my best to be part of their rocket fuel, that allows them to go out into the world and pursue their best life, whatever that means to them and that they feel that they have been set up to be able to do that and do that with as much freedom as this world allows or as much freedom as their mind and spirit can imagine that this world 

[01:38:44] Joe Towne: That’s so moving to me, I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of that answer and who you are and okay.

On the horizon things we should be looking out for. Yeah. Season six of queen sugar is out now by the time this airs, there still will be [01:39:00] a few we can follow along with 

[01:39:01] Anthony Sparks: that’s. Right. So please, cause where we, I, where we got. The season where I leave the show in terms of it’s the stories that we’ve explored this season and the stories that I’ve set up for potential future seasons.

I’m very proud of. Uh, I don’t think it’s been really done that much in television before and, you know, and sort of the, the, the question I basically end the season on without giving away too much is just how large can this notion of black joy be, how deep can it go? And what does it really look like? If you say that’s what I’m going to live on top of, I literally got to grapple with those questions in this season.

And so I’m very proud of that. That Queen Sugar seasons. 

[01:39:55] Joe Towne: I hope they’ll engage with you on Twitter because people can join in the conversation there, your brain active there. I know you signed an overall deal at Blumhouse and you have Detroit youth choir on Disney. 

[01:40:08] Anthony Sparks: Yes. Yes. So, so yeah, so this is really a tremendous moment.

Cause so right now I have my Swan song season of queen sugar up. So we’re to running the show. It was my Swanson season. As I transitioned into my deal at Blumhouse, uh, television. And we’ve sold a show together to Disney plus, uh, that is right now called choir. And I’m very excited about what that can be.

So stay tuned and listen for that. I’m also an executive producer on a Hulu limited series that is going to be coming out probably in the next six months. We are shooting. Now. It is the untitled Mike Tyson series taking on. His life, which is a big life to take on [01:41:00] very unique life. So I’m very, very proud of that.

That’s going to be pretty special. Um, Trevante Rhodes is playing Mike Tyson. Russell Hornsby is playing Don king. Harvey Teitell is playing custom motto, who was Mike Tyson’s, uh, trainer and adoptive father. Uh, Laura Harrier is playing, uh, Robin, you know, it’s just, it’s, it’s going to be awesome. Yeah, it’s going to be awesome.

Craig Gillespie, uh, and Steven Rogers, uh, uh, who did I, Tonya has gotta be something to see. It’s going to be really something to see. Uh, so I got that. So I quit sugar. I got choir, I got untitled like Tyson happening. I’ve got about two or three other projects that are, uh, Being fast-tracked, um, busy and, uh, and, uh, I’m sometimes tired, but I’m also remember being very like, yeah, I remember when you want it to be this [01:42:00] busy, you know, I worked so hard for other people in my past and recent past that I did get to a point where I was like, if I can work this hard for other people, how hard could I work for my own visions and my own, my own projects as well.

And, and the time was now for me to step out and do that. And that’s what I’m doing. A couple of things I can announce just yet, but, um, but a couple of other couple other deals that I’ve been blessed to sign that, um, I’m working on that you’ll be hearing about, I think

[01:42:33] Joe Towne:  In the next ew months I’ll be cheering you on whenever you’re allowed to announce them.

And we’ll certainly share as much as we can. And I want to say, thank you. For your time. I know how valuable it is. I want to thank you for what you’re doing to write a new world and the possibilities of that new world into existence. And I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom in all the spaces that you [01:43:00] show up to teach and encourage.

I want to thank you for being a beacon of what is possible in the world personally, to me and professionally, and thank you for your many years of friendship and wisdom and your great big heart. 

[01:43:15] Anthony Sparks: Thank you. You know, I love you, man. I appreciate you. This is thanks for having me on. And hopefully people find this interesting or helpful.

[01:43:30] Joe Towne: What stands out to me is Anthony’s passion and vision. He is so clear on what he wants to see in the world. And his vision is backed up by his drive. I loved hearing about his why, and to see that he saw this vision years before it has come into existence, that he was ridiculed and questioned at times by his peers.

And now that sweet celebration of so many things coming to fruition at once. It’s awesome to see the through line that Shakespeare has had and Anthony’s life as a storyteller [01:44:00] from him, exploring Shakespeare in high school, to performing Shakespeare in college, to getting work on a production at the public theater.

And that his philosophy is partly rooted in to then own self be true. I hope you will check out queen sugar. The sixth season has been compelling, but to be honest, they have been making such great television for years. Now. It is entertaining. And a masterclass, but it’s also an education. So if you haven’t seen the show, check it out and follow Anthony on social media, like on Twitter, you’ll get a glimpse into what he’s up to and can engage with them over there as well.

Lastly, I feel inspired to tell better stories, to write better into existence, to celebrate when good stories are being dreamed up and created and get curious about what we can learn about why they’re having such an impact in the world. Okay. You are not going to want to miss our next guest. Liza katzer [01:45:00] Liza is a creative producer and.

For Duzer productions, where she spent 10 years working alongside bill Lawrence and Jeff in gold. She most recently won an Emmy award for a little show called Ted lasso. Originally from Southern California. Liza studied at Northwestern university, spending time abroad in Edinburgh, Scotland before returning to Los Angeles to begin her journey towards becoming a creative producer.

She spent time learning about how the industry works for both management 360 and the United talent agency UTA. Before landing at Disney, she spent several years helping put together films at Disney before finally making the leap over into producing comedy for network TV, cable, and streamers. There is a reason why the Hollywood reporter just named Liza as one of the top 35 executives [01:46:00] under 35 in Hollywood.

In addition to season three of Ted lasso, she has upcoming shows in development with Vince Vaughn, Jason Siegel, and more. I’m so excited to share this conversation with you in our next episode of the better podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You continue to show up for these episodes and we are so grateful.

We appreciate you resharing them for letting us know what is impacting you and for your enthusiasm. We’re excited. We’re in the second half of the season, we have some great guests on the horizon and we hope that you will continue to enjoy. Thank you for being part of this community until next week. Be well.