[00:00:00] Joe Towne: Hello. My name is Joe Towne. Welcome to The Better Podcast. Thanks for being here, and for returning listeners, welcome back.

Each week, we are going to explore the concept of better, how being better leads to doing better and how it impacts all areas of our lives. This week. We have not one but two guests on the better podcast, Hattie and Charley Webb. Also known as the Webb Sisters. They have been playing music for most of their lives, sometimes on their own, mostly together, and their harmonies though, cultivated through hard work and practice are gifts from above as teenagers.

They performed for several members of the Royal family, including the Queen herself. They’ve gone on to perform everywhere from the Montreal Jazz Fest and to Piazza San Marco and at Royal Albert Hall. They’ve had a record deal at Universal Records. They’ve worked with Grammy award-winning producers and a song of theirs won the international music award for best adult contemporary song.

People like working with them so much so that people keep asking them to collaborate. They’ve gotten to record at Abbey Road Studios, sung with Sting and got on the season finale of HBO’s Big Love alongside Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks. The Webb Sisters were chosen by Leonard Cohen to be in his band on his international comeback tour, performing over 400 concerts around the world to 4 million people.

Over six years, Tom Petty listened to their music and said their records are incredible. They will blow your mind. He then asked them to join he and the Heartbreakers on their 40th anniversary world tour. These two humans are so thoughtful, so curious and so lovely. And I find myself so excited to sit down with them and learn about what recording and touring have taught them about being better artists, as well as what makes them so resilient to be able to sustain over time.

Let’s jump right into the conversation with Hattie and Charley Webb, which is all about the space between rhythm and flow.

So welcome you two to The Better Podcast. I wanted to start with this question. Imagine for a moment that both of you were countries and that people followed you around all day, writing stories about your life. If your life had a newspaper, what would the current headline of it say, Hattie? Could you share with us what the headline of your life would say?

[00:02:49] Hattie: Wow. What a interesting question. Alive and inviting change.

[00:02:55] Joe Towne: Alive and inviting change. Sounds like there might be a question mark in there too. 

[00:03:00] Hattie: I think it might be an exclamation point. 

[00:03:04] Joe Towne: Perfect. Alive and inviting change. If I double clicked on that article, what would the first few sentences say?

[00:03:11] Hattie: 

It would say I’m very grateful for everything that has brought me to this place and the process of implementing imp implementing. That’s the word. If you can say the word, you can do the word. That’s what I’m telling myself. Implementing new patterns, new evolution. Understanding is really key to a happier life for me, I feel. 

[00:03:43] Charley: Well.

I loved your answer. Hat was really tight. I think it might be a peaks and valleys. 

[00:03:50] Joe Towne: I’m curious, I’ve deposited a quarter for this, this newspaper. I’m clicking on the article. What might the first few sentences of peaks and valleys mean? Tell me. 

[00:03:59] Charley: I think daily life, when you’re not able to zoom out, can be complex and complicated and busy.

And then when you are able to take a moment and you’re not absorbed in the moment, which is something we strive to be in the moment, uh, I think sometimes you get a little better perspective. And so whilst I try to be present, sometimes I, I have to dial myself back out and, um, just make sure that I have a real view of things and see.

The highs are there and maybe the lows aren’t so low and that pretty much the whole journey is really beautiful. 

[00:04:55] Joe Towne: I really feel that so deeply. I know that for me, if I haven’t [00:05:00] caught up with myself, if me and I have not had a date in a while and having sat and listened that it feels like there’s this background, anxiousness that something’s out of alignment, something wants to be heard.

And that perspective you talked about is so important. 

[00:05:18] Hattie: May I ask you that question, Joe, about what would your headline be today on this Monday? 

[00:05:24] Joe Towne: Thanks for throwing it  back, Hats. Um, I would say papayas and Lilla coy because I’m currently in Hawaii. I got to see. Speaking of, uh, you know, spending time in person with people. I have some cousins who live here on the island and my cousins invited me over for dinner last night. And I had never seen their home. It was up against a mountain on the north shore or in Kailua in Oahu. And I got to meet their young one, um, who we just spent an hour and two just bonding and playing and, [00:06:00] um, made me miss my son Lucas.

And they took me on a tour of their garden in the back that they’re growing all these incredible fruits and flowers and herbs, and sent me home with quite a bit of papaya and Lilla coy and something called a miracle fruit, which I tasted for the first time. You’re not supposed to eat it, but you sort of swish it around in your mouth for a minute.

And it changes your palette takes all sour things and make some sweet, so you can taste the lemon afterwards. And so this morning, as I was preparing for this, I was enjoying. 

[00:06:37] Hattie: Wow. Gosh, I’ve never heard of the, how fascinating

[00:06:39] Charley: that miracle fruit, just to sort of link back to what we were saying before. Can you imagine if something existed or something was created, where when you tasted it or smelled it, everything that you found nourishing was muted and everything you [00:07:00] found annoying or troublesome you found.

You know, inspiring. 

[00:07:05] Joe Towne: Yeah. It’s the Freaky Friday of food tasting where you’re going to do the body switch movie. Absolutely.

Freaky Friday is a classic body switch movie that came out in 1976, starring Jodie Foster and Barbara Harris. It was remade with Lindsay Lohan and Jamie Lee Curtis, which ended up with an 88% on Rotten Tomatoes. The story is where a mother and daughter switched places with one another to gain better perspective on things which ultimately bring them closer together.

Sounds like it’s ultimately about cultivating empathy, right? In both films, the device that causes this to take place or cryptic fortunes at a Chinese restaurant coming from some fortune cookies. So as we think about the stories we are telling in our own lives, just know that a, these [00:08:00] movies got made.

And be that cookies are magic. I want to go way, way, way back. I want to talk first dream. Now, the two of you in my eyes have fulfilled so many dreams that you’ve set out for yourself. I’m curious to know earliest influences, you know, in the world of art and music. Was there someone you saw from backstage, someone that you remember imitating?

Like when did you think I want to do that? Char, maybe you could start us off. Yeah. You know, 

[00:08:33] Charley: I don’t really remember having a particularly conscious idea that I wanted to do or be on this journey necessarily that Hattie and I’ve been on together and in our own ways, over the years, I think two things stand out for me.

One, I recall being a very young child, probably three or [00:09:00] four. And at the time, my dad and I used to go into his tiny little office and our family home. And I would beg for him to put on the purple record with the lady with the brown hair. And it was the Helen Reddy. It was a Helen Reddy album. And at the time I wasn’t old enough to appreciate just what an incredible inspiration she was as a single mom with a child, crossing the world and making a new star in the creative, um, industry and having determination, um, and just so so much, um, uh, ambition and where with all to, to go it alone with a young child.

Through a lot of, uh, adversity. Um, but I, I just thought she had an awesome voice, [00:10:00] a great band, great wisdoms. And I just wanted to be a part of it. I remember that. So we would always put on those records and I would dance on his, um, green sofa. And then another thing that, you know, fast forward, many years Hattie, and I would be forwarding and rewinding and forwarding and rewinding on our tape player to write down every lyric we could of indigo girls songs.

And then we didn’t split it really accordingly. We would just be singing parts and I’m in goodness knows I would be embarrassed to share the lyrics that we thought were accurate. But, um, we, I just had so much fun singing those songs that Hattie and I still think they stand up, you know, 25 years later as some of the most extraordinary vocalist, songwriters, harmony creators.

And I [00:11:00] remember thinking at that time, this feels amazing and, uh, not necessarily planning, but when we did have the chance to make our first record of original material, you know, we, we definitely had that, I guess, instinct within us to try and create those harmonies and to try and follow them. Melodic lines that they had set us up with as, as a good foundation.

[00:11:28] Joe Towne: Yeah. I love that so much. Both images really strike me the image of you on the green sofa and that connection and bonding with your dad and listening the colors on the album, standing out to you and just being moved by the music and the connection that you had both to the music and the environment you were in.

And then together, the two of you, what I’m hearing is that you were figuring something out, but you are absolutely having the most fun, the history of fun that it was enjoyable. It didn’t feel like [00:12:00] just the parts of work that sometimes feel tedious. And the fact that those two things catalyzed and stood out that’s really.

Yeah, it 

[00:12:08] Charley: was pure joy for music and, and the way their songs, especially have a huge amount of, um, tension and release in, in the harmonic structure of their, of the way their voices go together. So, 

[00:12:23] Joe Towne: yeah. How about for you? Do you have, do you recall any particular early influences or moments that stand out?

[00:12:30] Hattie: Two thoughts that come through first for me in relation to music is sitting at the concert of Marisa. Blair’s a fantastic harpist who my dad took me to see when I was six. And I’d wanted to play the harp for a couple of years, apparently. And I don’t know where I heard it first. And I remember sitting in the front row of that concert had got us front rows seats, but I was so excited.

I was swinging [00:13:00] my legs. Maddie said our Blais said at the end of the first half would the little girl in the front row stopped swinging her legs. She’s distracting me. And so she went off stage. She sweep, swept off stage and have big bull GAM. And she came back on and I held my breath almost for the whole second half.

And then she said, thank you to the little girl. And then when I was 15, dad took me to see her again. And in the interval, she asked me to go up on stage and play a piece. And I remember thinking, wow, this is such a gift. And it’s also a real challenge because she’s a world-class harpist. So I played, I think I played a jazz piece.

And then the second memory I have is sitting on your sofa and your REM char you had a crust EJ project for GCSE textiles was that, and I remember we put music on and it was one of the first real funding times. I can remember [00:14:00] that you and I were bonding as friends, not just sisters. Like I felt I was sat there doing the cross stitch with you, and I felt part of something important together.

So that’s a memory that comes up for me on your, on your sofa, by the window and listening to music. Yeah, 

[00:14:18] Charley: it was a special time, I think also because of our. We went quite such children AME or we’d reached a different age. So we were talking as you know, on the verge of young women, which is a very different time to being kids and running 

[00:14:34] Hattie: around.

Isn’t it. I often think about the difference between some, when something is chosen for you and when you choose it yourself, whether it’s something in your life or whether it’s a state of mind that you’re choosing for yourself, there’s something very empowering when it comes through versus outside inside.

So, yeah, that was a memory that came back 

[00:14:58] Joe Towne: to me. The flush out [00:15:00] a little bit of this environment. You’re talking about this home. I think often about the people that shape our lives years ago. I recall during one of your parents visits to. Los Angeles. I had the great privilege of meeting both your mom and dad, uh, and Graham web very kindly gave me a copy of his book in which full disclosure I had no intention of reading.

So Graham hands me this book about his time as a hairdresser called out of the bottle. It’s like 550 pages. And I wasn’t planning to read this book, but he gave me that look, the one that says, I expect a book report on this. The next time we meet up. In fact, he emailed me and told me he was looking forward to my thoughts.

So I read it, all of it. And I’m so glad that I did. It was amazing to learn about his journey with music and as a seaman turned drummer for the Dave Travis band and eventually a hairdresser. [00:16:00] And so I got to learn more about my friends and where they can. You grew up around and in, and of music, right? Two brothers, Brad and Rocco, both drum.

And the two of you play, not just harp, Hattie, but Ray, that is the main instrument that I know you to play, but I feel like, you know, you play multiple instruments each of you, and I’m curious, what was that environment like growing up around all this music in it, around it? 

[00:16:30] Charley: Well, I think some of my best memories of that were, um, the peace and solace of learning the piano.

I don’t really write on the piano much. Um, one of our songs, the good night song, we wrote together using a keyboard. But most of the time when we write together, I tend to use my guitar. But yeah, I, I loved playing classical piano. And I think when I was a child, [00:17:00] Dad was quite keen for me to expand into different musical styles, but really classical piano was my language.

And it was really a happy, joyful, and, um, almost therapeutic experience for me. We had one music room at home and it was where most of the instruments were. And we were also keen to rehearse and practice for our. Music lessons that we actually have a chart on the wall documenting who was to be in there.

When I find, I find things like that really invigorating. I like to know where I’m going to be sometimes, and it helps me focus. Um, so yeah, w I was, you know, doing one instrument from six 15 to 6:45 AM, and then another one’s 6 45 to seven 15, which isn’t really very long, but it was the sort of morning schedule, you know, that’s the nuts and bolts of it, but it actually created a, a good routine and a good sort of, [00:18:00] um, grounding for, I suppose, creating a close relationship to the instruments and remembering those musical friends that are there for us whenever we need them.

And then the ability to, and there was a lot of encouragement for us to share our musical language with other people, whether that was performing or playing in a group. I wasn’t really keen to play the piano in a group, but I did play other instruments. I loved playing tune percussion and drum kit, which was really born out of noticing that at the all girls school that I went to for a couple of years, there were no volunteers to play drums.

And at the time I already played wind instruments, clarinet, and saxophone and things. And I thought, well, I’m going to do the drum parts. And, um, it really expanded into, you know, timpani and Sila phone and other things that just were so much time in orchestra and band. And we used to do a lot [00:19:00] of holiday courses where we’d be playing every day and the orchestra and group, and absolutely love it.

I loved it. There’s nothing quite like the craziness of musicians, especially classical musicians and what people get up to behind the scenes that 

[00:19:18] Joe Towne: really paints a picture for me. How do I want to ask you about mum? She’s a tennis coach, right? And one of amongst other things, one of the things that the books that has really influenced me as an artist is a book called the inner game of tennis.

The inner game of tennis, a book by Timothy Gallwey published in 1974. It’s basically sports psychology. Before those two words were ever smushed together. Billie Jean King called the original book, her tennis Bible. When Pete Carroll was coaching at USC, he would buy a copy of the book for every one of his players and staff as mandatory reading.[00:20:00] 

It basically says that every game is composed of two parts, the outer game and the. The outer is against opponents. The inner game is played within the mind of the player. The principle obstacles being self doubt and anxiety. And this book embodies both Zen thinking and humanistic psychology. It’s basically designed to help us get out of our own way and let our best emerge.

I don’t know if it’s something you’ve come across, but I believe that artists and athletes have a lot to teach each other. And I’m curious if you could, what did tennis teach you about being a professional musician? 

[00:20:44] Hattie: Good question. And actually when we were on tour with Leonard Cohen, I did read the inner game of tennis to help me process some of the mental and emotional processes with focus and.

And [00:21:00] understanding anxiety and performance anxiety as well.

[00:21:08] Joe Towne: Performance anxiety is fear about one’s ability to perform a specific task. People experiencing performance. Anxiety may worry about failing a task before it’s even begun. Some may believe that if they fail, they will be humiliated or rejected by others. Performance anxiety is commonly referred to as stagefright.

Some people say they’d rather get the flu than perform athletes, musicians, actors, and public speakers often get performance anxiety. You might think of it as brain interference. If it gets intense enough, it can lead to mental meltdowns. You may also hear the phrase choking under pressure performance.

Anxiety can also affect sexual performance as well. Ultimately, it’s something that shows just [00:22:00] how powerful the mind and our thoughts can be and how much of an impact it can have on what our body does. Performance anxiety can prevent us from doing what we enjoy and can have a huge impact on our careers and our lives.

[00:22:16] Hattie: I remember when I was a teenager, I used to go to tournaments that our mum was teaching at and present tab. I would say the most important thing in that whole experience was the sense of community. I’ve remember meeting people, seeing old friends. And I really enjoyed the tennis though. I think I enjoyed the fact that I was part of something with people, more, something.

I remember one time there was a game and we really needed my win for the team. There’s something that can happen for me when. Have a lot of pressure on me or I’m a bit down and out, I can pull [00:23:00] through with something extra. So I’m not sure if I learned something or if I realize something about myself through that, that I have an extra hidden gear that I don’t know of until I’m until I have to use 

[00:23:13] Joe Towne: it.

I love that so much that hidden gear. That extra capacity that when called upon when the game’s on the line, that you have a reservoir that you can tap into, 

[00:23:26] Charley: I just like to chime in and say that I think, ha you have a few hidden gears and then you have the super-duper red booster button.

I witnessed all of those things be put into motion when you’re feeling like you’ve hit a wall and then we have to do something. You go off again, then you go off and not the gear. And then like, you really have to kick things into high gear. So you press the red. Yeah. 

[00:23:55] Joe Towne: I love that image. The rocket booster.[00:24:00] 

It’s so clear how well, you know, each other and you know, obviously you spend a lot of time growing up and then spending time having adventures and talking and becoming adults, sitting on the couch, having deep conversations. And now you’ve had so many adventures together. I’m curious to know about self-belief it feels like something that evolves over time, but I know that there’s a moment when we move from, Hey, I’m really liking this into believing that we can do it professionally.

And I’m sort of curious about the interplay between external feedback and your own self knowledge. So I’m curious, char maybe when did the beliefs start to Dawn on you that this is something you might be able to do professionally? 

[00:24:44] Charley: You know, I think for me, things were the opposite. I was already doing it, so I wasn’t thinking about it.

And we did things professionally at such a young age that I didn’t really have a concept of, you know, how much of a [00:25:00] cheek. It might’ve been, that we were even, you know, standing on the stage in those moments or, you know, whether we deserve to be there. We were just so young, we were doing it and there wasn’t so much self questions.

I’ve observed in myself over time that gradually the confidence has become less and less. I, and it’s something that, you know, I’m aware of and not only trying to work on for myself, but I try to observe that element in my children. And perhaps, you know, reflecting back to something you touched on early hat in the moment when you’re watching children and they, they act instinctively.

It’s really beautiful. And then as a parent and as a keen and present parent, I try to ask myself, ah, okay, how much am I affecting their behavior or their [00:26:00] choices by perhaps giving them some impression as to whether I’ll be happy if they choose. So I’m really trying to work on, perhaps in myself, just unconsciously creating a pathway for them where not only is it okay to disappoint me, but I actually encourage them to disappoint me because I think they’re much more likely to be free in their choices to make authentic choices and to have real happiness and confidence.

If they’re doing something that they instinctively know that they want to do, you know, I’m so grateful for the encouragement that I had and that we had, things are very different now than they were 30 years ago. And I know just how lucky I was to have parents who were perhaps against the grain and really encouraged a creative life.

And I, my parents never [00:27:00] were hard on me about my grades or gave me a ticking off or an expectation as to how well I would do in one thing or another. There was no emphasis on you, better achieve X, Y, and Z. Although they, they did really support us academically. But I think just to hone in on your question, I, I, wasn’t thinking I was acting and doing, and I did looking back really have an intrinsic confidence in myself.

And I think the, the more I’ve become seasoned as a human being, I’ve perhaps had more of an opportunity to self-assess and that’s left some space there for me to work on myself and to perhaps spend more time checking in with myself to go, okay, do I really want to do this? Or do I feel that I have an expectation to someone around me, [00:28:00] even that I don’t know, I tend to be a people pleaser and I tend to feel that I’m happy if other people are happy, but I, of course I do understand that true happiness comes from within.

Um, so I’m working on that and, um, yeah, I’m glad to have the opportunity to reflect on that. I 

[00:28:18] Joe Towne: really appreciate the vulnerability that it takes to speak about that char because the idea that it just sort of was something you did and didn’t have to decide, like, do I believe I can do this? Partly because of that encouragement and partly because you were just putting it to the test on a regular basis and being invited to things and letting yourself know you could do this, but that word expectations both as a parent and as an artist, I’m really hearing that expectations, which can start so young can sometimes a fix our star to an extra.

Motivating force instead of an intrinsic motivating force. I’m not doing this for me. I’m doing [00:29:00] this for, you know, approval or belonging or something else. 

[00:29:05] Charley: Yeah. Yeah. I think again, it’s really almost impossible for me to separate my view on personal development. From my experience as a parent now, I feel like it’s so interlinked.

And I observe in myself that if anything, what I’m trying to show to my two girls is that success and excellence is much less important to me than emotional maturity and stability and happiness. And I do give them applause, emotional applause. When they’re doing something well, or when they’re doing something that they appear to really enjoy.

But, um, yeah, I just, I guess, [00:30:00] want them to feel like they’re doing something that they’ve chosen to do in a moment by moment, you know, nevermind in 20 years time or whatever. And, um, and I’m trying to remind myself that my inner parent in mind a child can have that same conversation. You know, I can, I can try to do that for myself too.

[00:30:20] Joe Towne: That’s beautiful. I think that as artists, we go through those peaks and valleys and knowing how we can come back from a valley, uh, I think gives us confidence in the, in the long-term. How do you, I’m curious to know, how do you make sense of this question? Where does confidence come from? 

[00:30:39] Hattie: Viking question?

And the next question that comes up for me, what is confidence? Confidence. To understand where it comes from. If in my mind, I understand what it might be in this context, would confidence being to feel ease and [00:31:00] joy, that you can manage something it’s within your capability and you can contribute positively, perhaps 

[00:31:09] Joe Towne: ease and joy, and that you have it within you to contribute positively, maybe like a self-trust or, 

[00:31:16] Hattie: uh self-trust because we all know people who come across very confident, but then you see cracks every so often that the confidence may be a shell.

And underneath that, there’s something that doesn’t have the confidence to be real and more and more I’ve I’ve witnessed that in other people. And I’m always, I’m always desperate for the. Real person underneath, no matter what it is like I want to, I want to experience the real person. And, um, so to come back to where does it come from?

Is that the question? [00:32:00] 

[00:32:00] Joe Towne: So

[00:32:04] Hattie: where do I think it comes from? I don’t know for other people, but I’m, I’m beginning to have a sense of where it comes from for me. And I’m sure it’s very different for each person. Just like your fingerprint is unique to you. And to me, for me, I feel a sense of confidence when I have the space to come to something calmly and to feel that.

I’m giving something truthfully from myself that I’m coming from an integral place. I remember early on when we were playing, if it be all well, and you and I were in soundcheck and we really sung out and [00:33:00] if it be, oh, well, we really gave it one in this, in the style, a little bit of our childhood, where we were encouraged to go big.

And we did the soundcheck and Leonard very quietly said to us, listen, you can keep it smooth and still communicate something meaningful or something along those lines. Do you remember that? And it was a reminder to me that confidence doesn’t have to be volume. I think true confidence can also be in quiet or stillness.

And I wonder if, as an actor for you. If you’re on stage or whether you’re a soloist or doing an ensemble piece and in a film, if you’re thinking, what would my character be doing now? Um, then you, it takes you out of it. But if your character doesn’t have anything to do to just do nothing, there’s a confidence in that release of action.

So I [00:34:00] think that’s something I’ve learned over time that perhaps is one of the benefits of maturity and age that you’d go through the, the volume and discover. There was something in the still quiet all along

[00:34:19] Joe Towne: the word, confident comes from the Latin words con and fee day. It literally means with faith. So to be confident is to have faith. So to have faith in what the quality of being certain of your own ability to do things. Uh, belief or conviction that an outcome will be favorable, do things well, favorable outcomes.

Okay. A feeling of having little doubt about yourself and your abilities. This seems to imply the absence of doubt. Although faith requires doubt. So perhaps the doubt is necessary to [00:35:00] another definition, says confidence is a feeling of trust in someone or something yet another definition says self-confidence so self-trust self confidence belief in the certainty of something the engineer’s determined with confidence that the ship could withstand heavy seas.

Well, this reminds me of the phrase that smooth seas do not make for a skilled sailor. So it’s not faith that we can handle sailing in perfect conditions. It’s faith that in the game of life, no matter what happens. We may get bumped or bruised or have moments where we need to pause, but perhaps confidence is trusting that we can adjust and grow and learn as we go, that everything we need to go out and explore is inside of us.

And when we know better, we will do better. I want to go back to something that you said earlier, because you mentioned a couple of moments from [00:36:00] this tour that the two of you got to do with Leonard Cohen for many years, six years, I believe. And you brought up the word anxiety, which feels like the flip side of confidence.

And I’m curious to know, what have you learned about your relationship to nerves? Are there any moments that stand out? I know that it sounded like there was an article there that I would love to double click on about that time that you were reading the inner game of tennis to help with something. Yes, 

[00:36:30] Hattie: for me.

I’ve realized that perhaps my anxiety wasn’t the opposite of confidence. It was the invitation to real confidence because I, early on in the tour, I really felt, I really related to how you described Charlie, having this confidence from a young age, or just a knowing that you, you could do it. And over a period of time, that structure of confidence for me, [00:37:00] when it hasn’t been built on a strong foundation, then that structure, when it’s put into different weather, earthquake, which inevitably will do in any creative industry, I have a philosophy.

It’s not, if something traumatic happens to you, it’s when, particularly as we both know in the workplace, you’re dealing with so many personalities and you’re also managing other people’s challenges. And. And then learning and that imperfections, which is all parts of the beautiful picture, but it really takes a lot of navigation.

And if you’re starting out, no one gives you a map, which is why I think this is so powerful what you’re doing, Joe, because these conversations open up learning for me too. And I’m so looking forward to listening to your other interviewees as well, and learning [00:38:00] back to your question for me, I began to feel that the intensity of the travel and the pressure, it began to permeate my, my ducks back over time.

But because I didn’t have quite an awareness with sensation. Well, my body or skills with grounding that I realized that I had to learn quite quickly, it was quite sink or swim when things really happen for me, I had, I had fainted on stage and, um, the experience of that kind of set a few things, emotion for me, where I had been for so long, trying to be a very good daughter, be a very good sister, be a very good teammate band member, but [00:39:00] perhaps not navigating my own system first and knowing how to self-soothe and knowing how to be my own parent, as you really astutely mentioned chart about beginning to understand and attuned to my own inner child or my own fragility.

And that it wasn’t my enemy, that it was actually an opportunity to. To nourish that side of myself and that any anxieties that came up, I’m a nervousness to sit with it and be present. And not that I was bad or wrong, but that I was learning and that I was also doing a very good job in a very high pressured situation.

No one really says to you, people say, oh, that was great. But sometimes the beauty of being told well done or acknowledgement. This is really hard is something I realize I need from [00:40:00] myself quite a lot. So flexibility within that performance space, flexibility mindset has been something that’s really helped me.

Because sadly, there’s, there’s not a script with, if I do this, it will equal that. It’s been sad sometimes when you’ve done all your self care and you’ve prepared and you’ve meditated, and then you have a bad show. And then you know, that not only is there something beyond all of us and that’s where the opportunity is knowing sometimes things don’t go to plan.

And it’s okay though, also to have that flexibility of going well, actually, when I look back earlier on, I was meditating and I was very frustrated throughout the process. So maybe that’s the moment to get change and attuned to my inner child and go, right. Well, let me ask you, [00:41:00] what do you need right now?

And then to say, actually, I want to run around the block and climb a tree, or I actually. One to kind of dance and then that be the medicine. So I’m sorry. That was a long answer. 

[00:41:16] Joe Towne: Oh, it’s beautiful. How do you, there’s so many things in there that I would love to acknowledge and talk about the main thing that I’m really hearing.

It reminds me of when you’re an artist and you have a long period of time that you’ve explored being an artist, it feels like stage one is figuring out how to be an artist in a way that you can be a part of, you can have training and you can have confidence in yourself. I know a process and that process deepens through time.

It deepens through different ways of training. But what I’ve realized is that most training prepares us to be an optimal circumstances. Most training is in a class of our peers, [00:42:00] in a supportive environment and everybody working in the same style. And so some training. It doesn’t prepare us when inevitably we get put into a situation that’s challenging us, right?

Smooth seas do not make a skilled sailor. So here you are in this situation where you realize, gosh, everything that has worked for me, these tools are no longer serving me. I really hear that the medicine was in the dis-ease that there was a reframing for you. If this is not a bad show, this is not a bad thing.

This is a calling from a deep part of me, and I need to get quiet and I need to sit and hear what I have to say. And that is, uh, that reminds me of this phrase, the lonely work it’s the work that no one else can do for you. Other people can guide, invite, stimulate ideas around, but it’s the work we have to do with ourselves.

The lonely work [00:43:00] you’ve likely heard me use this phrase in several episodes. I wanted to jump in here to share a bit more about. How I understand it is that the lonely work refers to the work that no one else can do for us. It’s everything from getting clear on who we are and what we believe to the practice habits that we do when no one else is watching.

It’s one of those things that others can guide us on, but it’s ultimately up to us when swimmers get up early, go across a dark campus, jump into some cold water and swim for hours, staring at a line at the bottom of the pool. That’s the lonely work. When we sit down and think about what we know to be true, what matters to us, how we find meaning in defeat or challenge our thought patterns, or even the time we spend visualizing our success.

This is part of the lonely work too. The thing that this reminds me of is that we get rewarded in public for the work we do in. [00:44:00] So keep that in mind the next time you wonder if doing some of these intangible things will make an impact. So perhaps that’s the work that brings forth the confidence, my understanding of confidence definition wise, it was taught to me that it comes from the root words, calm and fee day.

So with faith. So the question becomes faith in what faith, perhaps in ourselves that no matter what circumstances bring, I can adjust, right? That flexible mindset you talked about. And I know that, um, there’s an amazing sports psychologist, Dr. Michael Gervais who says that most people think that past performance is what makes us confident.

I’ve done it before I can do it again. But you know, there are times I’ve had an amazing performance extrinsically. People have complimented me and inside. I have been a mess. I did not believe them. And so it can’t come from. Uh, [00:45:00] great performance alone. It has to be coupled with something. And what he posits is it that, that other thing is, self-talk how we speak to ourselves.

Self-talk starts from a young age by external influences, teachers, parents, guides, people we look up to, and that becomes our internalized self-talk. And it’s a hard job to rewrite those tapes and Charros hearing. You say you’ve been on a journey where you went from confident to struggling with confidence and I can’t help, but think that sometimes we talk to ourselves differently over time.

And I know that for me, becoming a parent, I become hyper-aware of patterns that came up through my whole childhood, like how I was parented, how I wished I was parented the kind of torturous self thoughts self-talk that I had as a teenager came back. Um, my relationship to caring for [00:46:00] myself was challenged.

So I was dealing with a depleted self. So all of that feels like it feeds into confidence. And I couldn’t be more excited for us to be unpacking this a little bit together. It makes me feel closer to both of you and a little less alone in struggling with those things myself. The thing that’s amazing to me is you talked about pressure, right?

I don’t know how old you were, but you toward charities and parties and perform for royalty from a young age, right? You perform twice for princess Anne once for queen Elizabeth. And now you’re on tour with Leonard Cohen. And you talked about it being a pressure situation, right? Travel and, and pressure.

What was fundamentally different? Do you think pressure wise was the pressure. That internal crumbling, because your support system wasn’t able to uphold, or did you put an additional amount of pressure [00:47:00] and meaning on this particular time or this particular tour?

Leonard Cohen, Leonard Cohen was a Canadian poet and novelist turned songwriter. His musical career spanned nearly five decades. He was the writer of songs like hallelujah later covered by Jeff Buckley and songs like dance me to the end of love his lyrics. Like there’s a crack in everything. That’s how the light gets in.

Are some of my absolute favorites. Judy Collins said in her autobiography, sweet Judy blue eyes, that Leonard was naturally reserved and afraid to sing in public. She recalled his telling her I can’t sing. I wouldn’t know what to do out there. I am. A performer. He was terrified. She wrote the first time she brought him on stage to sing with her in 1967, more than [00:48:00] 2000 recordings of his songs have been made, including artists, such as U2, Aretha Franklin REM, Trisha Yearwood, and Elton John.

He maintained a private, sometimes ascetic image, which is totally at odds with what we normally think about from rockstars. In 1996, Colin was ordained as a Rinzai Zen Buddhist monk and took the Dharma name G con meaning silence during his tour from 2008 to 2010, Leonard Cohen performed nearly 250 shows.

Many of them lasting more than three hours observers note that he seemed remarkably fit and limber skipping across the state. Doing deep knee bends and occasionally dropping to his knees to sing Cohen was inducted into the Canadian music hall of fame and the rock and roll hall of fame. He was also invested [00:49:00] as a companion of the order of Canada.

The nation’s highest civilian honor. 

[00:49:07] Charley: I think some of the things that Hattie mentioned were in many ways, new to us, because up until that point, Hattie and I had both independently and together played in other bands and other orchestras and other all sorts of things like that. But in terms of contemporary music and being on a stage and being in a small ensemble and being in a professional situation for many, many years, Hattie and I were the nucleus and had our own language.

And some of that was verbal. Some of it was just in the nuances of how we were playing, how we were singing our emotions, little looks or inflections. And [00:50:00] when we joined Leonard and the rest of the band, although at the time I felt like it was exciting and we were taking it in our stride over time. There were lots of things which looking back were different.

We were part of a bigger machine. Uh, we were effected closely by other people who, and right near us on the stage and as ha. It was an ensemble performance. We were all there to support Leonard’s vision, Leonard’s language, Leonard’s songs. And we couldn’t have been more proud and happy to be there. But of course, you know, if somebody who’s close to you is having a really difficult time and you’re singing or playing in step with them.

You’re feeling those things too. You’re there. And soundcheck whilst they’re struggling, you’re struggling in something and they feel that. And you know, there, isn’t always time to discuss and download [00:51:00] and sort of integrate the understanding of all of those things. So just like anybody who’s doing an ensemble thing, whether it’s in an office or, you know, on stage as an actor or, you know, whatever it may be.

Um, I guess being a standup comedian and presenting your inner flaws and, you know, putting yourself out. As a solo person, you know, I felt lucky enough that for most of my career, I’ve done that with Hattie, but in those moments, on the Leonard Cohen tour, we had all of those other influences and there were lots of things that weren’t within our choice, you know, where we were standing, what we were wearing, how things were with the performance, what we could or couldn’t do or say, or how we could move.

You know, Leonard wanted us to be of course, authentic, that was [00:52:00] unspoken. And didn’t need to be said, but you know, when we do our performances or when we’re there to share our message as the web sisters, or as solo artists in moment, Then it’s our train, it’s our voice. But I think one of the challenges that I felt, and perhaps Hattie felt that too is, you know, sometimes even where we were standing or the temperature, you know, was a huge challenge for, for our show to be freezing, freezing cold, nothing that could be done about it.

Somebody in the 10th row may have been wearing their Willie. Hadn’t been freezing too, but, you know, we had high Def TV and perhaps 18,000 people looking at us and we had, of course, you know, wow, we weren’t digging ditches, but you know, we wanted to offer our best selves to the performance and to support Leonard.

[00:53:00] And I didn’t always have in my armory to do those things within those constraints. And, you know, had it been my show or our show, I probably would’ve gone. I’m absolutely freezing who else is cold or, you know, whatever it was. But in those, in those moments, you know, we might have been like running off to the side in between the song and vomiting into a bucket because we had some illness or, you know, or, um, you know, freezing at the boiling at the beginning of the show and freezing at the end of the show because the sun had set and we were outside in a desert and Australia, you know, these are all things I couldn’t be more grateful for.

I mean, can you even imagine being able to say that, but yeah, I guess there were lots of things that were out of our, out of our control and you know, those things in, in for many people in their jobs, those are things people have to battle with. You know, you’re not always paddling your own canoe. 

[00:53:58] Joe Towne: Well, there’s so [00:54:00] much in their chart.

The first thing, you know, this tool. How to label on it, right? There was a word farewell written into it. So there’s a sense of legacy that’s happening. And that may add to like that sense of responsibility and potentially in the background contribute to some pressure of, you know, it’s in service to this amazing artists vision.

What I’m also hearing is where is the space for our agency? Where’s the space for us to speak up. It’s one thing to do a three-day silent retreat, and then come back to my busy work life and try and navigate living in a big city and going to my job every day. It’s another thing to be able to do moments of silence or care in the cracks in my life.

And what I’m hearing is that if you were responsible for your show in between songs, not during the song, you would name this. [00:55:00] You would do something about it. You’d ask for something you’d ask for help. You would re you know, if you’re a person just being a person, there’s no pressure. You changed the air conditioning or open the door, put on a sweater.

So where is the, it feels like what you’re describing. We’re seeing in the big sports stages right now, too. I’m not going to do this interview. I’m not going to play this match. 

[00:55:25] Charley: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how brave, how brave and, and the people who are protesting and perhaps losing their opportunity to even do what they do.

Is it con Colin Kaepernick? Is that how you say his name? I’m always in all of his strength and, and how much he’s able to, um, put himself out there.

[00:55:52] Joe Towne: Colin Kaepernick is an American football player and activist in college. He played for the Nevada Wolf pack. [00:56:00] Where he was named the Western athletic conference offensive player of the year twice, and became the only player in NCAA division, one history to amass 10,000 passing yards and 4,000 rushing yards in a career.

He played for six seasons for the San Francisco 49ers, leading them to a super bowl and to a couple of NFC title games in 2016, he took a knee. Well, at first, he sat during the national Anthem as a protest against racial injustice, police brutality and systematic oppression in our country. He then read an open letter from retired army green Baret, Nate Boyer, which prompted him to reach out and for the two of them to meet, they discuss their opinions and feelings.

Finally, Nate Boyer said, in my opinion, and in my experience, kneeling has never in our history been seen as a disrespectful act. People kneel when they get. They kneel to propose to their wives and they [00:57:00] take a knee to pray. And soldiers often take a knee in front of a fallen brothers grave to pay respects.

And so Colin, kneeled and other players followed suit, and the act became politicized. When the media spun his kneeling to be about disrespecting the flag, instead of about protesting oppression in our country, Kaepernick became a symbol for racial justice. He co-founded the no you’re right camp offering free seminars to disadvantage youth to teach them about self-empowerment American history and legal rights.

In 2018, Nike released an ad featuring Kaepernick with the text, believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything. NFL spokesperson, Jocelyn Moore responded to the ad saying Kaepernick social justice campaign, quote unquote, deserves our attention and act. And yet Colin Kaepernick remains unemployed by the NFL.[00:58:00] 

Even after George Floyd opened the eyes of the nation to what he had been saying all along Oscar nominated filmmaker, Ava DuVernay has made a limited series about Colin’s life on Netflix coming October 29th. 

[00:58:14] Charley: I feel the need to just also clarify, we had an extraordinary team of people helping us. We have people behind the scenes trying to give everybody what they needed and, and to help us, um, but be the best that we could be.

But obviously human beings are not machines. And the reality is in any environment, you don’t always know what you’re going to need. Things, change, environments change. And when you’re talking about, you know, duration and longevity and health, everything is a moving target and, and everything is, is something to, um, just to gradually keep checking in on.

So I do feel, 

[00:58:56] Joe Towne: yeah, I appreciate that balance that, that it’s, you’re [00:59:00] not saying this was a toxic environment where nobody was looking out because we’ve, we’ve probably been in moments where that happens, but even. Well, intentioned and thoughtful environments, these moments can occur. And so when do we speak up?

When do we speak up to each other? When do we become aware of that ourselves? Um, how do we plan for that flexibility mindset within I’ve recognized that, uh, in this moment I need something and I can’t tap out or can I sometimes maybe we can. And you know, sometimes it doesn’t occur to us until the reflective process afterwards, how we might do it differently.

I imagine the next tour that you did had a different approach going into it. 

[00:59:43] Hattie: Yeah, though. You know what it’s like when you go into a new scenario, you have new. Great things to navigate and challenges to navigate. And this is maybe the beauty of the human experience. There’s a phrase I wanted to touch on [01:00:00] that.

You said Joe, about the deficient self. And that was, that’s a really powerful phrase, the thought that, because we’re in perfect and because we’re always learning and because we’re also an animal going through cycles, the deficient self does come to the surface from time to time. And, and how do we navigate that?

And for me, I often think back to when you were a child, if you had a chance to do the role play so that you with yourself, I’m feeling I’m in a bit of a deficient self right now, that’s that’s role play at what what’s coming up what’s needed, but then also in the workplace, um, I think something I’ve really learned to.

People really do want to do a good job and support you, and you really want to do a good job and support as well and be present and the idea of appreciating other people. And then [01:01:00] also having the calm confidence to ask for what you need and come from a place of resource when you’re asking, not necessarily the deficient self and, um, something I noticed in myself when I, when I ask for something from my deficient self, then something deficient is reflected back to me.

But if I’m able to ask from a resource grateful place, which I’m not, I’m learning, this is something new for me. Then, then people instinctively since your. Ability to receive and resource, and then, then they reflect that back to you. So I just wanted to share that thought. 

[01:01:42] Joe Towne: I feel that so strongly, how do you around sleep?

So if I’m running around exhausted, it’s really hard to know what I want. Sometimes I want to snack and it’s really my body trying to generate some energy to stay awake, but it’s not what I really need. And after a really good night’s sleep, if I can just get that going, all of a sudden I wake [01:02:00] up and I know what I need, and I know how to ask for it.

And it it’s a little bit of a different situation.

We know sleep is important. We may not know the extent of. In the nineties, J Alan Hobson, a sleep researcher, quipped there’d be only known function of sleep. Was the cure sleepiness back then, we didn’t know. So even sleep researchers were kind of jaded about sleep. Since then there have been substantive studies.

Plus you may know this from your own experience, that there is a link between a good night’s sleep and improved mood memory. Any ability to learn when we are sleep deprived, we effectively formed twice as many memories of negative events in our lives. As of positive events, producing a biased and potentially depressing memory of our day.

Several studies over the last 25 years have now concluded that poor sleep can under certain circumstances, lead to depression, [01:03:00] severe enough to be diagnosed as major depression and may contribute to other psychiatric disorders. A growing number of experiments carried out over the last 20 years have also found that the mechanism of sleep directly affects everything from hormone balance to immune protection, preliminary results from the world’s largest sleep study, more than 40,000 people from around the world have shown that people who sleep on average between seven to eight hours per night performed better cognitively than those who slept less or more than this amount.

Neuroscientists from Western universities, brain and mind Institute released their findings, which stated approximately half of all participants reported typically sleeping less than 6.3 hours per night. About an hour less than the studies recommended amount. One startling revelation was that most participants who slept four hours or less.

Performed as if they were almost nine years [01:04:00] older, they found that the optimum amount of sleep to keep our brain performing its best is seven to eight hours every night, that corresponds to what doctors will tell us. We need to keep our body in tip top shape as well. They also found that people that slept more than that amount, equally impaired as those who slept too little on the positive side, there was some evidence that even a single night’s sleep can affect a person’s ability to think.

I’d love to switch gears if we can. I want to talk a little bit about process and I want to talk about the balance char between being overly prepared and leaving space and room for creativity. Can you talk about that balance a little bit? 

[01:04:44] Charley: Yeah. You know, I think probably this is one of those things, which is different for everybody, but, um, certainly.

I imagine there’s some similarity there, whether it’s perhaps between a musician and a [01:05:00] sports person, it’s a limbering up, it’s a muscle memory, you know, rehearsing and being familiar with the motion of what you’ve got to do or what you’ve chosen to do. So the, like you touched on before, whether it’s a good day or a bad day, your or my baseline abilities, performance, energy levels, you know, ability to share my baseline hopefully is high enough to be able to do what it takes.

And, you know, I noticed that sometimes with friends who are talking to me about having to give a presentation to their office office, um, you know, colleagues or. Of course, we have a lot of musician, friends, um, but I think sometimes having that [01:06:00] repetition in there and that practice, and then being able to free yourself from expectation by stepping away somehow is the right balance in and not to harm yourself into the ground over it, Hattie and I, over the years, I’ve, for some preparation we’ve practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced and rehearsed.

I’m sure of it. And then almost not really being able to let go know I’m on a quest to let go as much as possible. And we’ve got some performances coming up and I’m thinking, gosh, yeah, I really need to practice. And then I’m noticing that certain things feel, Ooh, you know, that feels better than ever.

Something that I haven’t necessarily touched on for a long time. But I think it’s that basically. 

[01:06:50] Joe Towne: Again, I really appreciate that. It, it re it reminds me of the phrase practice, like you want to perform. And if you’re practicing and practicing and practicing and practicing and [01:07:00] over practicing, there’s an energy there that is like tightness or holding on or grasping.

And it sounds to me like it creates an inflexibility when it comes time to actually go and do. And you’re talking about this idea of no, do your prep, but then walk away and walking away might look different on different days. Might look different for each of you, but it sounds like that’s a valuable part of the process that before you perform and after you’ve prepped, walk away, hats, could you describe what walking away might look like?

How much time are we talking about between, say a final check and the performance. What goes into some of those items? 

[01:07:41] Hattie: Well, that’s one part of my process, which I’m not so good at I’ve walking away is not a muscle that has been there naturally from a young age, because I feel I really wanted to make my mum and dad proud [01:08:00] my siblings, and that looks like keep going at it until I did that.

Um, and so there was a real, a slight distorted process in me that I’ve been navigating now as an adult, where as your question, Charlie, you know, what am I doing this for? Who am I doing this for? Do I really have to make my family member proud of me or happy right now? Or can I take care of myself? Can I make a decision for myself?

And that’s something I still really struggle with in almost every decision of my life. So I’m still, I’m still, it’s a. I’m still at a baby weight with that muscle, but I’d say walking away for me, um, the ability to walk away is combined with two things. One [01:09:00] embodying acceptance as much as possible because no matter what’s ahead, no matter how the concept will go, if I can embody that space of acceptance and really have that tangibly inside of my process, then I’m going to be able to walk away easier.

The other part of it, what I’ve discovered technically as a musician there’s practice and then there’s pre practice. And if you do a lot of practice, but not pre-practice, then the practice is much less effective. So the pre practice for me looks like. Playing something really slowly with a metronome, warming up each fig finger.

And though it’s a bit laborious. What that does is creates a relationship between the beat that I have a flow [01:10:00] and a space between the beat. But if I haven’t done that and I dive straight into uptempo practice, I don’t have a relationship with space that is grounded and rooted. So that idea that sometimes I feel that pre-practice is more important than the practice, particularly when it might be a song or a piece of music that I’ve done over the years.

Many times if I’ve sat down and I’ve played really slowly articulating coming home to my hand, Coming home to my breath and my shoulders back and down, coming home to listening to that space in between the beat. And that, that is part of my creative process. Then when I go to practice, I’m prepared to embody that space there.

So I hope that made sense. [01:11:00] 

[01:11:00] Joe Towne: Oh, I love it. The space between flow and the beat. Uh, I’m gonna chew on that and meditate on that for sure. Charlie, I want to ask you, I don’t know if it will be a challenging question, but I’d love to put you into a head space where I imagine if you will, a moment when you were performing, it could be any time it could be, you know, yesterday on your couch, it could have been on a stage.

It could have been in rehearsal. It doesn’t really matter when, but what I want to know is what does it feel like to be you in those moments when you’re at your. What does that feel like? What are you filled with? What qualities are making up the you that is, 

[01:11:40] Charley: you know, I feel so lucky to be playing the guitar and singing in most of the performances that come to mind when you’re talking about these things and there’s this incredible power and almost like a stretched [01:12:00] elastic band that can go in both directions, happily.

And I often feel like playing the guitar when I’m performing with Hattie is a little bit like also being the drama, creating a base and a rhythm, and almost kind of like the roots of the tree. And then I’ve got this connection with Hattie when we perform. That it just feels like an intertwining of strength.

And then the vocals almost feel like

it’s an emotion, it’s an emotion. I’m not trying to represent what I appear to someone else, but the emotion is like some coming through the clouds [01:13:00] and through the branches of the tree. And that’s how it feels in the most powerful moments of a performance. When I say powerful, it doesn’t have to be big.

It could be small or large or expansive or tiny, but, um, those are the moments where I feel the most. Gratitude and sort of simultaneously out of body and deeply connected to 

[01:13:24] Joe Towne: myself. Yeah. I love that. I’m hearing a connection to the rhythm, a connection to your environment and your partner and teammate, and I’m feeling a, I’m hearing a connection to emotion and what seems ever present at the same time is a feeling of gratitude.

It’s so beautiful to be able to name those layers. How do I want to throw that to you as well? How does it feel to be you when you are at your best? I feel 

[01:13:54] Hattie: self less. I don’t feel so attached to my identity [01:14:00] or who I think I am. I feel part of the elements. I feel really connected to nature. It’s like when you’re in a waterfall, In Hawaii and you’re in the water and you feel the energy of it and you’re swimming and there’s that real blissful feeling of flow connection and freedom as well.

When it becomes boundary-less when you become by osmosis, just one, that’s the feeling I have. And it’s, it’s an extraordinary feeling when it happens. And there’s one of the thing I just wanted to mention. Charlie’s not just the bass and drums. She’s Charlie is the whole band. Jolly’s so amazing. Charlie holds down the snare drum and the kick drum, [01:15:00] and then she’s also playing the bass with the bass string and then the guitar.

And then sometimes not just with a guitar, a tambourine and drum kit with her feet. So I just want a big it up to chart right here. The thing the band. Thank you. 

[01:15:17] Joe Towne: Oh my gosh. You too. Can we have a little fun? Let me do a little fun and games. These answers are so thoughtful and beautiful and poetic. Just like the two of you are.

I want to do a lightning round. Just means, go with your gut. What’s the first thing that comes to mind. And the first thing I’m curious about is, you know, for anybody listening to your beautiful accent, if they haven’t figured out by now, you are from Kent, England, you are British Alabama. Oh, I, I want to ask about some British expressions.

So either of you can jump in, if you want, you can go back and forth. Let’s start with Hattie trolleyed. [01:16:00] 

[01:16:00] Hattie: had loads of loads of booze been, been hitting the town, not the Jonestown, hitting the town really hard. And um, I kind need a trolley to get home, so I’m trolleyed 

[01:16:13] Joe Towne: okay. Chart dodgy. 

[01:16:16] Charley: Ooh. Hmm. Weird. But perhaps not in a good way.

Maybe a bit dead. And possibly steer clear 

[01:16:29] Joe Towne: a hot 

[01:16:31] Hattie: cup of tea all day. Every day. I got one on the go today. I’ve got, uh, a jug of tea, actually. Um, cup of tea, highly essential, love a copper. 

[01:16:42] Joe Towne: Some days call for a jug. 

[01:16:45] Charley: My husband says that Hattie and I always have a tea, teabag graveyard, and many of them around, 

[01:16:53] Joe Towne: I want pictures, char throwing a 

[01:16:55] Charley: wobbly.

I’ve done that a few times. Throwing a wobbly [01:17:00] is, you know, you might’ve heard throwing the toys out in the pram. It’s just like, yeah, you can’t handle it. You’re at your limit and you let everyone know. 

[01:17:11] Joe Towne: Okay. How do you, what does the word chuffed mean? 

[01:17:16] Hattie: You know, it’s, uh, it’s a combo of puff. The chest is out.

So chest and puffed. You really chuffed about something really happy. You’re really proud. You really feel good about it. You’re challenged. Do you want to tell everyone about, I 

[01:17:30] Joe Towne: love, I can feel the energy of that. Char Muppet. Oh, 

[01:17:36] Charley: You know, this should be a happy thing and it should be, um, a lovely thing, but it just so happens that in English colloquialism right now, uh, somebody being a bit of a Muppet means that they’re perhaps being a bit silly and making a few mistakes.

How I usually use the word, celebrate them off as 

[01:17:55] Joe Towne: they’re faffing around. It’s 

[01:17:58] Hattie: something I do [01:18:00] out of. Um, I think you bet either you things, you know, your thing, you’re citing things around and you, you, you want to make progress, but you’re not. You’re kind of shuffling the detritus back and forth. 

[01:18:16] Joe Towne: Okay. I want to ask you about some quotes.

Uh, this first one first instinct. When you hear this, let’s start with you char dance me through the panic till I’m gathered safely and lift me like an olive branch and be my homework.

[01:18:37] Charley: Uh, does do I, I mean, 

[01:18:43] Hattie: Roscoe’s base dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, and then us swooping into a bit of a movement together. 

[01:18:52] Joe Towne: Awesome. Char you belong somewhere. You feel free. That’s the world is [01:19:00] like a mirror ball. 

[01:19:01] Hattie: Charlie’s amazing falsetto voice the way it just sails over like, like the mist and the sun at Dawn. 

[01:19:14] Joe Towne: Okay.

Char, I’m going to challenge you on this one. This I believe is Hattie’s lyric on her own solo album, but I’m curious to know what it evokes in you. I have the river mouth of the sea. I want to be like the water going where I need to be. 

[01:19:28] Charley: Yeah. Um, love it, love it, love it. Um, it evokes in me the constant state of being for me, you know, I, I do want to be like the river going where I need to be, and it just takes me right back to our amazing, gorgeous, talented, incredible songwriter writer, musician, singer, friend, Sam sample, who we toured with a lot.

And I [01:20:00] had just such great fun with, and then, um, we wrote some songs together, including that song river, and I love Hattie’s version of it on her record. 

[01:20:11] Joe Towne: Okay. Okay. First quick, hit thoughts performing for the queen hat 

[01:20:15] Hattie: on the whole time. Even during the lunch, the queen, not me, 

[01:20:22] Joe Towne: although I wouldn’t be surprised Charlie Abbey road studios.

[01:20:27] Charley: Listening witnessing a whole orchestra player songs, and just being in all that we were even there knowing what else has taken place in the room and feeling that energy never to, never to be 

[01:20:41] Joe Towne: forgotten how the Royal Albert 

[01:20:43] Hattie: Hall, 2008, our first concert on British soil and just feeling so proud to be standing there with Charlie, the only Brits in the band, our family in the audience, just feeling like we’ve come home with, [01:21:00] um, with a really good friend with biocide or the band 

[01:21:05] Joe Towne: Charlie performing at Glastonbury.

[01:21:07] Charley: You know, there are a few different times, uh, 

[01:21:11] Joe Towne: when you think of favorite venue that you’ve ever performed at. 

[01:21:14] Charley: Yeah. Okay. So an extraordinary, extraordinary feeling for hat and I, we shared our feelings on it, which is why I’m joining her in with me. Pyramid stage sunsetting, a hundred thousand people Leonard’s voice.

Unbelievable.

[01:21:38] Joe Towne: Roston brief festival is a five day festival of contemporary performing arts. That takes place in Somerset. In a town called Pilton originally named the Pilton pop folk and blues festival in 1970 organizer, Michael Eavis was inspired by an open air festival. He attended and decided to throw his own festival [01:22:00] at worthy farm.

There were 1500 people that attended, it costs just one pound and attended. I got a free pint of milk from the farm. Now it’s an art festival featuring not just contemporary music, but also dance, comedy theater, circus, and cabaret. It’s just celebrated its 50th year. We’re over 200,000 attended after selling out in just 34 minutes.

It’s thought of by many as the biggest and best festival in the world, festival goers have tried to describe what is so magical about this place. We don’t know. The Glastonbury is reputed to be the burial place of king Arthur. So perhaps there is some magic after all 

[01:22:49] Hattie: also just a quick side note, Charlie and I had just such hardcore as the, when we realized we were going to be playing Glastonbury, we said to the tour manager, we’d [01:23:00] like to go early sleep in our brother’s tent for three days before we play the pyramids.

So few as before the gig, we went back, had a shower and we kind of morphed out of mud Fest into the Lennon gate. 

[01:23:15] Joe Towne: How about this phrase? Mysterious forces. 

[01:23:20] Hattie: I have a lot to say about that, but after, you 

[01:23:24] Charley: know, you said that now go, 

[01:23:26] Joe Towne: go, go Patty mysterious forces. What do you have to say? 

[01:23:30] Hattie: Some support? Some you flow with some you’re intrigued by some you’re resisting.

Some you wish you could invite some of you don’t know whether you can or should invite if there’s such a thing as should anymore. And some which you can’t tell if they’re a positive path at this point, or if it could [01:24:00] be shark-infested waters, 

[01:24:02] Charley: I I’m just going to. Mysterious forces. Welcome. 

[01:24:07] Hattie: Wow. I love your bravery, Charlie.

[01:24:11] Joe Towne: We need that on the wall. Um, okay. How do you, uh, chocolate 

[01:24:17] Hattie: every day at every possible moment getting my mouth. 

[01:24:23] Joe Towne: Yes, I know that. That’s true. Okay. I just have a couple more questions and then I want to let you go, although I’ll be sad because I’m really enjoying this conversation. I’m just trying to be mindful of energy and time.

Could you share a bit about, you know, either of, you can take either time period, but what I want to ask about transitioning into the day and transitioning out of the day, morning routines and evening routines, like, is there something that you do no matter what time you’ve gotten in somewhere at the end of the day, is there something you make sure you do every day when you wake up, how do you make sense of morning [01:25:00] routines and evening routines?

Char, do you want to go first? 

[01:25:03] Charley: Okay, sure. I’m working on them. They’re always evolving. I’m not sure I’ve found my perfect or if that even exists for me. Um, you know, I’m a little bit, um, sideways on those especially morning routines. Cause I’ve not woken up with my own accord for the last six years, but, um, 

[01:25:29] Joe Towne: fair as a mom.

Yeah. Let’s do a time travel then. Let’s, let’s talk about, um, perhaps a decade ago, the two of you recording an album, you can choose a time. You were grounded living in the same city and recording an album, uh, Viet Nashville, Los Angeles, somewhere else, or it could be on tour. What’s maybe something that you were consistent about.

[01:25:51] Charley: Feel so much strength, confidence, and solidity within myself by doing my vocal warmup. [01:26:00] Um, so that’s huge for me. As much rest as I can get a lot of the boring and yet such important things, hopefully a good meal and being warm enough, having a selection of clothing, depending on how I’m going to fail. And very importantly, having comfortable underwear 

[01:26:21] Joe Towne: that’s.

How about for you? Is there anything at the beginning or the end of every day that you make sure you do? No matter what I’ve 

[01:26:26] Hattie: discovered that I really love organization and a clean space. And so if I’m able to tidy up the space from the day and perhaps lay items out for my day tomorrow, I’m always so grateful to myself.

It’s like, I feel like someone’s looked after me. And even though it’s me and I feel a sense of calm and support and gratitude for that. [01:27:00] And then there are the times where I recognize I haven’t been able to do that for one reason or another. Then I just get to flex that acceptance muscle all the more, 

[01:27:11] Joe Towne: you know, we all, uh, at some time in our life have to say goodbye to something that matters to us could be a person like a collaborator.

It could be, uh, the end of a show. The two of you have just come through a pretty powerful life moment. And I’m wondering if you could share, maybe there’s not enough space yet, but initial thoughts on saying goodbye to pawn cottage. What has it taught you? How, how long has this home been part of your life and, and going through this process of letting it go, what has it taught you?

Or what is it teaching you? 

[01:27:51] Charley: Okay, so our family home that we grew up in a beautiful higgledy-piggledy. [01:28:00] Uh, country house built in 1580, a huge amount of nature and garden and freeness and flow, um, that we were incredibly lucky to grow up there. It wasn’t posh by any means. Um, but it was, uh, where we, you know, where our family home has been for many years.

And, um, our parents had just moved on from that space. And I think one of the things that it’s taught me is that the reality of what we fear is never as bad as we think it may be. And that an experience that we have and love that we have is always in us, it’s ever present. And I am missing that space occasionally.

As life moves and evolves and [01:29:00] grows. I’m so grateful for that change. And for newness, 

[01:29:09] Joe Towne: that’s about for you, how are you making sense of this? 

[01:29:13] Hattie: Yeah, I really liked what Charlie said and I loved the question. Making sense of something, allow space to receive the moment, the feeling and making space for transition.

It’s um, it’s a beautiful thought and I thought I’d like to do a little bit more ceremony around that. We did have a little ceremony upon cottage and we buried a time capsule and we held hands and. And, um, I had quite a few personal private ceremonies around the garden and, and saying, thank you. And one evening I touched the walls [01:30:00] and the word, and just said, thank you so much for holding us throughout so many years.

And so many different moments of our lives.

[01:30:43] Joe Towne: A time capsule is a historic collection of goods or. According to the library of Congress, a good time capsule doesn’t have to be buried, but requires only three things, a good storage container, a good place to keep the storage container [01:31:00] and careful consideration of what to include in the container. The practice of preparing and preserving a collection of everyday artifacts and messages to the future appears to be a more recent practice around 1761.

Some dated artifacts were placed inside the hollow copper grasshopper. Weathervane a top historic fennel hall in Boston, the 1939 New York world’s fair time capsule was created by Westinghouse as part of their exhibit. It was 90 inches long was made out of a metal and contained items, such as a microscope, some staple food crop, seeds, and doll.

It also contained microfilm spools containing various tech. Artists such as Andy Warhol, Christian Boltanski and Louise bourgeois are known for their compelling collections of everyday artifacts that they associate with memories of the past, which are preserved in museums and archives. [01:32:00] There’s some documentation of at least three physical time capsules at MIT in Cambridge, Massachusetts, as well as a virtual or digital time capsule.

As of 20 19 4 time capsules are buried in space. Some people refer to time capsules as useless, junk, as they don’t tell a lot about people’s lives. They say if the items could help describe the time of the people who created them such as personal notes or pictures or videos, then it would mean more to historians who may come across them.

For me to relate to what Charlie says about probably paraphrasing, but I took from it that something that has happened still 

[01:32:47] Hattie: lifts on in its own way. And so the strange 

[01:32:51] Joe Towne: I did was a bed from the attic and, um, 

[01:32:57] Hattie: when it was unpack [01:33:00] 

[01:33:00] Joe Towne: through the active 

[01:33:02] Hattie: word and, um, there were a couple of crumbs of wood on the mattress and sounds really weird, but I ate them and I ate them and I tasted it and I could smell Palm cottage and the taste.

And I suppose there’s that homeopathy of everything that PON cottage gave us, you know, that space within yourself. It’s not just physical, tangible spaces that are enriching. There’s. There’s the privilege and gratitude of growing up there. And then there’s also the creating of new spaces. 

[01:33:44] Joe Towne: Really appreciate you sharing that.

It’s not often that we can talk about grief and loss and in, in a detached way, um, from being a, a person, but lifetime of memories in a home, you know, not everyone grows up and gets to spend that much [01:34:00] time in the same place. You have a really unique perspective. And I imagine that it’s a longer process to unpack, but I love that you’re dreaming about it.

And yeah. What do you want 

[01:34:11] Charley: to say? Well, no, I was just going to say, you know, I feel, you know, a lot of times in life we have an experience which is unique to us or perhaps something that we only experienced ourselves. Whereas, you know, I feel so lucky that. All of my family is still around so that we can have banter and, you know, stories and jokes and more poignant moments talking about different things, which meant a lot to us.

And they’re from that space and that’s already happening. And, you know, sometimes I feel, I feel a moments pain when we’re talking about it, even in this conversation, but I think it’s all part of processing, you know, the beauty and the love of what it all meant. And, um, you know, part of grief is [01:35:00] acknowledging why you have it.

And the fact that most of the time there’s grief, there was love. I’m so happy 

[01:35:09] Hattie: for that. Yeah. That’s really beautifully said, Joe, you have really navigated moving. From the outside with seeming grace and practicality. How’s that been for you moving house several times and finding a new NERC and community each time, your favorite store?

[01:35:30] Joe Towne: That’s a great question. Um, it’s true. I did in the last couple of months, just move homes and, um, you know, I, I have a sense that in my life, most homes are temporary. Um, I’ve moved a lot in my lifetime and there were very few homes where there was a ton of history. I would say more grandparents’ homes than almost anyone else’s home in my life.

And so I’m familiar with the rhythms and the [01:36:00] process, and I’ve realized that at this point in my life, that asking for help is one of the biggest things that I need. I really love the process of listening to a space. And we returned to the space several times before moving in, just to sit and listen.

What does the space want to be? Um, I’m not going to say that it was all seamless. There were lots of moments of frustration, intention, and we’re not completely settled, but my understanding of space at this point is that you get to a point where you feel settled for now, and then you go through an internal journey and your relationship to space changes, and then you need to change your space to reflect how you’re feeling now.

So it feels like a. Interesting snapshot of what my current relationship space is. And similarly hats, we went through the old house with Lucas and said goodbye in each room, said goodbye in the backyard. And, um, we’ve taken up that habit of doing that. When we let’s say we go stay [01:37:00] in an Airbnb for a week with him, um, we just really love the process of saying thank you and thinking the house and thinking the rooms and the memories in them.

That’s been pretty powerful. Okay. First thing that comes to mind, Charlie, this is the last few things here. What can you not stop watching currently in your life? What can you not stop watching 

[01:37:18] Charley: call your agent or is it call my agent? Call your agent, call your agent. Yeah, the French, the French program. Wow.

I absolutely love it. I just finished it actually. And I love the performances. And the storyline. I also really liked being in touch with a little bit of French language or some 

[01:37:42] Joe Towne: show. Yeah. Hat’s how about you? Anything you can’t stop watching? 

[01:37:48] Hattie: Well, I wouldn’t say I can’t stop watching it, but after many years of a break from Downton Abbey, I notice it’s on Netflix and I’ve dived back in.

Um, and, um, [01:38:00] welcome back, uh, to hi Claire castle. Yeah, I do feel like it’s, it just reminds me of Christmases, I think upon cottage and, um, that kind of cozy, British feeling that I sometimes missed when I was until 

[01:38:17] Joe Towne: that’s next one for you. What’s something you can’t stop listening to. 

[01:38:21] Hattie: I love this song Becker in the morning by.

I don’t know what the band is, but I’ve set it now as my alarm, because it starts with this kind of a theory, UL, daybreak sound. And, um, so not only can I not stop listening to it, I have to listen to it with my alarm because that’s what I’ve set there. And, um, it just gently opens up the day for me versus something beeping.

[01:38:52] Joe Towne: How about for you? What’s something you can’t stop listening to. 

[01:38:54] Charley: Um, one song that I’ve been listened to a lot lately is more of you by [01:39:00] JP Sachs. He’s a Canadian, a singer songwriter artist, and he collaborates with a lot of female artists. I think he has a phenomenal voice. I love his song writing aesthetic, and I specifically love the way his vocal just gets into your soul when he sends the song.

Uh, I want more of you and, uh, it’s just. 

[01:39:22] Hattie: Can I add just one more, um, you know, to come back to hounds of love by Kate Bush, I always come home to that album and I just think the sounds, the songwriting, they, the spirit and, um, the feminine energy running throughout, but it’s also really worrier worry a woman which 

[01:39:44] Joe Towne: we’ll have to make a playlist from all these suggestions.

Um, one of the songs I can’t stop listening to is called lookup by an artist named joy. Oh, Allah Alado Kuhn. Um, and I’m really loving it right now. Okay. I have to [01:40:00] challenge you for one moment before I let you go with these two last thoughts. So the theme of this podcast is better and the two of you. I have such grace and humility that I I’m excited to hear your answer to this first question, Charlie, what is something that you do better than most people sit with it, stay with it for a moment.

What’s something that you like. It may be hard and challenging to own this, but what’s something that you believe that you do better than most people. 

[01:40:33] Charley: Oh goodness. You know, I, I got, I don’t really think of anything I do in terms of a meritocracy, um, and being a musician and not a pole vaulter, um, with my five foot frame.

Let me think. I, I think there might be some cooking dishes that perhaps I make. I mean, there were other things that I absolutely [01:41:00] love to do, but perhaps I do some of my, my food dishes very well. 

[01:41:04] Joe Towne: Excellent. How do you, how about you? What’s something that you do better than most people. 

[01:41:10] Hattie: Making a creamy, hot tea.

It’s something I’ve really mastered because I’m such a temperature snob. I ensure that the cup is hot, so it doesn’t draw out the heat. And then you have a lukewarm tea. I’m sorry. It’s um, it’s really off the charts. My snobbery, my cups, my, the heat of my cup snobbery. 

[01:41:35] Joe Towne: That’s true. I want to show up to this cafe.

I want hat’s cafe. Okay. Perhaps this will hit different Charlie. What’s something that you’re working to get better at 

[01:41:47] Charley: two things spring to mind, straight away, leaving the house and getting somewhere on time without being stressed. There are lots of caveats and [01:42:00] loving and caring for myself. 

[01:42:02] Hattie: There’s such good 

[01:42:03] Joe Towne: ones.

Patty, what’s something you’re working together. 

[01:42:07] Hattie: Showing myself that I’m showing up for myself, the idea that I’m taking the time to do the things, which I know feel good for me and taking the time with sensation in my body today, I was really glad because I came back from a busy day and I had a couple of people, um, asking me for questions and answers.

And I was able to say, thank you so much. I have to just go and eat a little bite and I’ll be right back with you. And I was able to say it assertively in calmly, and I was really proud of myself because then I could have a nibble show up for myself and then show up for them more fully because I’d, I wasn’t about to eat my own face off.[01:43:00] 

So I have to say learning a lot. Listening to podcasts and, and this is why I’m so excited for this one. Cause I know I’m going to be a huge fan. Um, and yeah, navigating being more present for myself so I can be more present for others as well. That’s 

[01:43:20] Joe Towne: an investment that really seems to pay off that when we’re able to do that.

And, uh, I’m excited for both of you in this moment. What I’d love to do is I would love to ask you how can we support what you’re creating next? Is there a particular thing that we’ll obviously put your albums in the show notes and upcoming tour dates? Um, but is there some way that we can support something that you’re both creating next?

[01:43:46] Hattie: There is actually, we have a concert coming up in Denmark and it’s in a place called insur, which has spelled Odense and, um, I’m sure we’re going to be doing [01:44:00] some posting around the same time. So if anyone wants to engage. With us on Facebook or Instagram. We’d love to hear from 

[01:44:07] Joe Towne: you. This is the city that is the origin of the sound homes, tombstones tombs, right from the nightclubs, cheesy dad jokes.

That’s what I’ve got. Um, the two of you, I, all I want to do is reach through the screen and give you both the biggest hug. I want to say, thank you from the bottom of my heart, for this conversation for saying yes, for the way that you show up in the world for your grace and humility, your humor, um, and your artistry.

I love learning from the two of you, and I’m so grateful to be able to share this conversation with others. Thank you. 

[01:44:47] Hattie: Thank you so much for having us. 

[01:44:49] Charley: Yeah. Thank you. 

[01:44:52] Hattie: Love you. And thank you for creating this movement because I know. I know, I know I need it. And I’m [01:45:00] sure other people are weeping about this podcast.

I think 

[01:45:03] Charley: he, for me too, I can’t wait to listen.

[01:45:41] Joe Towne: I adore these humans. I found it very hard to end the conversation as listening to them, leaves me feeling so warm and chuffed. And now I want to put on one of their songs and open the window and just breathe in the night air. In fact, that’s exactly what I’m planning to do. Next. I [01:46:00] loved what they said about mysterious forces, some support, some you flow with some you’re intrigued by some you’re resisting.

Some you wish you could invite. And then when Charlie said mysterious forces, Well, I feel that I’m really hearing in this conversation that self-care looks different at different times. And even that well-intentioned folks may not fully know what we’re going through and what we need. I was hearing that having a flexible mindset is a key to collaborating well.

Lastly, the idea of how different our routines can look on the road. When I recorded this episode, I was on the road as well. So it was definitely something that stood out to me and stayed with me for more information on those to go to the web sisters.com and follow the two of them on Instagram at the web sisters at Hattie web music at little char guitar, all of which is in [01:47:00] our show notes and let us know what stood out the most from this conversation.

What are you loving? What do you want to know more about. All right. You’re not going to want to miss our guest next week. Pamela Sheldon John’s Pamela has been cooking food and writing about it for a few decades. Now throughout her time in Southern California, and since living in and exploring a life in Italy, she learned from some of the best and has shared her knowledge through 17 books, including many on Italian artisinal cuisine, her wine and food workshops are world famous.

According to the wall street journal, travel and leisure calls her one of the best culinary guides in Europe. Her stories may just make your mouth water and immediately get out your favorite recipes and start making a meal. So let’s be transported together to the Hills of Tuscany, surrounded by olive oil trees and a vineyard and fresh seasonal.[01:48:00] 

I can’t wait to welcome her right here on the better podcast. And Hey, thank you to each and every one of you who have subscribed and rated and reviewed, it means so much to us. These tiny efforts add up and they make us feel seen and heard and celebrated so grateful for you your time and your attention until next week.

Be well .