[00:00:00] Joe Towne: Hey there. Welcome to The Better Podcast. I’m Joe Towne. Thanks for being here.

You may know this by now that I’m on a mission to explore how we can get better at the things that matter the most — our craft, our relationships, including our relationship to ourselves and how being better and doing better impacts all areas of our lives. My guest this week is Pamela Sheldon Johns.

Pamela has spent most of her life in and around the food industry as a chef, a food stylist, and as an author, she was a manager at Ma Maison, which was the early culinary home to chefs like Wolfgang Puck and Susan Feniger. Her first book was nominated for a prestigious James Beard award. She went on to write 16 more, so far.

She has a master’s degree in education and she taught cooking [00:01:00] and food services to students with disabilities for 10 years, while living in California, she wrote and produced her own radio show and has also hosted her own weekly cooking show. Pamela has sat on the board of the Southern California culinary Guild and the American Institute of wine and food AIWF. And she served as an international juror for slow food. In addition to starting the Santa Barbara chapter or Convivium, she fell in love with Italy and Italian culture and she and her husband did something that most of us only dream about moving. And exploring the food cultures across Italy.

Pamela is the owner and curator of an accurate in Tuscany, Italy called POJO Atrisco. She lives surrounded by an organic olive oil and wine farm where she not only makes her own olive oil, but she is trained as an olive oil symbol yang. You may have read about her in bone Appetit or food and wine or travel and leisure have [00:02:00] all featured her and highlighted her cooking workshops.

Perhaps you saw her on CNN when they did a feature on her incredible cooking tours. And if you’re like. You’ve eaten with her or learn how to cook from her. Just a brief note that because Pamela was on the road from her home in Tuscany, she ended up doing this interview from a friend’s home. And it’s a working kitchen that you may hear in the background for part of the interview.

So that’s what you’re hearing. Let’s jump right into the conversation with Pamela Sheldon Johns, which is about the joy of small pleasures. Here’s a question that I’m really curious about. If you were a country and people were following you around everywhere and there was a newspaper being written about your life, what would the current headline of the newspaper of your life say?

[00:02:57] Pamela Sheldon Johns: It’s an interesting question. Um, [00:03:00] because my life right now is very different than my usual life and has been. Year and a half, almost two years. So the current headline would be she’s ready and she’s waiting for you. And, and this has been, you know, a lot of what I’ve done is to be preparing for when things do get back to some kind of little normal, I mean, probably you don’t want to talk too much about the pandemic, but it’s there.

It really has. It’s made a lot of changes for a lot of us and personal work, all of that. So my headline, you know what I want to keep it optimistic and in and make people interested in what’s she waiting for? Ready 

[00:03:46] Joe Towne: for? I’m so curious already, Pamela, I wonder if we could start way back, I’m curious to know what your earliest food memory, in terms 

[00:03:57] Pamela Sheldon Johns: of like, wow, that’s really [00:04:00] delicious and different, or it could 

[00:04:02] Joe Towne: be, it could be something that.

You know, pretty familiar and that you ate all the time, but it stands out as a food memory. I just, I’m blown away by the power of food memories. And I often, I often relate them to different people. And I wonder if you have some early ones. 

[00:04:23] Pamela Sheldon Johns: In fact, I mean, I really do have a lot of, a lot of connections between what I’ve eaten and who I’ve eaten it with, who I’m at the table with, or who has made this thing for me to eat, which is always just sort of the best gift when I always, you know, feel, I feel, I don’t necessarily feel like I’m giving you a gift when I feed you.

But for some reason, when someone feeds me, it’s just like something so special. And because I’ve traveled a lot in Italy and basically looking always for food items [00:05:00] and people who make them, I have that connection. Okay. Every time. I bite into a, a little bit of truffle, I think about bet bay, who was the first truffle hunter that I went with, he and his dog, just this adorable man in few month day.

And, uh, we would go out and we would let his little dog go out and find us truffles, and then we’d dig them up carefully. And the smell is just something amazing. It’s so we can’t really describe what that’s that aroma is. It’s other than maybe just say earthy or, but it just hits you right in your chest.

And, and so, and you know, he, he was a very special person. He by day was a bicycle repairmen and, um, and by night, because truffle hunting is usually done at night, he would go to a secret places. He also played the guitar. So he’d pull his guitar out and he had, my favorite song was I want to marry Carmella.[00:06:00] 

[00:06:03] Joe Towne: Truffle hunters are people who go out in search of precious mushrooms. These fun guy, or tubers only grow in certain conditions. And in areas that require you to forage for them in the woods. The winter white truffle is sometimes called a Piedmont or Alba truffle, because Italy has been blessed with an abundance of them.

They’re incredibly difficult to find and add an obstacle is that they grow beneath the surface of the earth. So a person looking for truffles can’t find them without the help of. Generally they’re located by the king noses of specially trained dogs that can smell them through the earth. Pigs had traditionally been used for this task, but they ate too many truffles.

Truffles can sell for a few thousand dollars per pound. In 2014, a truffle found in Umbria sold at Sotheby’s for over $61,000. [00:07:00] It weighed over four pounds. And in 2019 at the annual elbow, white truffle world auction, there was one wing Akila and five ounces that sold for 120,000 euros to a buyer from Hong Kong.

There are diminishing supplies in Piedmont due to rising temperatures and less rain due to climate change because so much money is at stake. There are stories about underground markets, dishonest, dealings, even attacks on the animals, designed to find them. I recently watched the Sundance film, the truffle hunters, and it’s now available on most platforms and it documents some of this beautifully.

So 

yeah. 

[00:07:41] Pamela Sheldon Johns: And you’re, you know, you’re right. I do have a lot of memories and, you know, fund fund things to think about people can connection to food. Is that what you mean? You’re thinking, 

[00:07:52] Joe Towne: yeah. I’m curious to know. Your love for food began. I think you are [00:08:00] so unique, Pamela. I mean, you not only write about food, but you cook it and you teach cooking, you grow and harvest your own food.

It seemed that you had some very early influences. Your dad, Alvin was a farmer. Your mother Edna was an excellent cook. Can you share a little bit about what that taught you growing up? Well, it 

[00:08:20] Pamela Sheldon Johns: would be, you know, I guess things that seem pretty basic, you know, especially for talking more than 50 years ago, we didn’t have all of the prepared foods and all of the, you know, all the fast foods in.

So it wasn’t anything that we would say this is exceptional, but my dad would go out to this tiny little garden that he had. In long beach, California. And he, he was an, his family were apple farmers. So he had one apple tree with 11 different kinds of apples on it that he grafted on. And so every time of the year there was a different apple.[00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] Joe Towne: Grafting is the art of placing a portion of one plant on a stem route or branch of another in such a way that they come together and continue to grow. This is often done with trees and shrubs to combine the best characteristics of the two plants. Grafted trees reproduce the characteristics of the plant in which you are adding, including their fruit and flowers.

Many fruit trees are not only too large for the average backyard. They also take years to mature to a size that’s capable of bearing fruit. So when you graft the lower plant portion used in grafting is called the roots. This is usually a healthy root system and some portion of the stem. The portion above the graft is called the Scion.

Everything up top leaves, flowers, fruits, et cetera, come from the Saigon. They can even bring with it. Disease resistance. Now imagine having a single apple tree with 11 [00:10:00] apple varieties, an orchard all on one tree grafted plants are perfect for limited space. They don’t require pollination since the different varieties pollinate each other.

You get great variety. And by doing it yourself, you get to decide on which ones you wish to grow. 

[00:10:19] Pamela Sheldon Johns: So that was kind of special. In fifth grade, I wrote a paper about it and learn more than I really needed to know. But the thing that always, uh, I always think about with my dad was that he’d stand in the garden and looking at the cobs of corn.

Say, go ask your mother if the water is boiling, And then he’d pick it, shuck it, run in and throw it in the water because corn, when you pick it is full of sugar and sweet, natural sugars, that as soon as you pick it, start to change the carbohydrates and become less sweet. We don’t even recognize that concept now because everything’s so genetically modified and so frigging [00:11:00] sweet hours after it’s been picked.

So I always think about in that my mother candle kinds of things from this little tiny garden, and it was a good childhood. We, I had a lot of experiences, different experiences too, because we had a property out in the California desert that my parents homesteaded. And, and so I realized the food was very different out there.

And we also had a little boat that we went to Catalina island on. And so there you had, you know, reaching into the water practically and picking up at that time, an abalone for dinner. 

[00:11:37] Joe Towne: So all those influences, different types of soil, observing the ability to graft multiple varieties on one tree, the freshness and the ability to preserve.

It sounds like all of that, it seemed very normal. And you wrote about it, you wrote about it early. 

[00:11:56] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Yeah. I wrote about it because it does, it does, it is fundamental [00:12:00] to my ideas about food and eating, but somebody the other day called me, a friend of mine said, well, you’re a hippie. You still do all those things.

You know, I’m like, okay, I am a hippie, but I, you know, don’t think, I don’t know. Maybe they, they do kind of come together the natural grains and things that in the late sixties, early seventies, And was the way people used to eat. 

[00:12:24] Joe Towne: Always. Yeah. You know, in doing a little research, I came to understand that you have a master’s in education and psychology, and I’m wondering, how has that influenced your work?

I 

[00:12:38] Pamela Sheldon Johns: think that my, my first career actually was teaching to young people and, uh, 14 to 22, um, with disabilities, how to cook and how to work in food service jobs, how to live independently. Uh, it was wonderful period of my life and in is what I studied to do. Sign language was a big part of it for me. I taught [00:13:00] at university too.

Um, and when I left that to play with food, let’s say, and my, my parents said, oh, really, you know, all that good college education. I said, well, you know, I can always go back to it. But what I understood was that everything, that, everything that I learned from that and knew from. Applied to everything from that day forward as well, because cooking, especially if you, if you take even, uh, even your own son and you want to teach him how to tie a shoe, you don’t just go make a loop and do that.

You first, you have to be able to cross the strings. Then you have to turn them over each other. Then you have to make a loop and wrap all this. And we called it a task analysis, but cooking is just like, 

[00:13:51] Joe Towne: just to make a step, super simple, your ability to communicate that step. I’m sure it’s influenced the way that you can not only teach, but write [00:14:00] about food and share recipes with people.

[00:14:02] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I think so I’m a teacher when I write, you know, and it’s breaking a task down into small elements. So you have more success. 

[00:14:09] Joe Towne: Well, you’ve just, you’ve been around. You’ve been playing with food for quite some time and I’m sure have had some incredible influences. I know that your very first book. I was nominated for a James Beard award, healthy gourmet, and you’ve collaborated with some incredible chefs when you were in Santa Barbara originally, and then maybe even up in San Francisco, did you do some graduate work up at USF 

[00:14:34] Pamela Sheldon Johns: cooking school was in Southern California in Newport beach first.

And then, then in Santa Maria. 

[00:14:41] Joe Towne: So who were some of those early influences in, what would you say you sort of took from that collaboration? The first 

[00:14:47] Pamela Sheldon Johns: thing that really happened when I was still teaching was that I started working at a cooking school, the cooking school, or the mom is on restaurant in Los Angeles, which is not, not really there anymore, I don’t think, [00:15:00] um, but was very famous at the time.

There was a rather unknown chef named Wolfgang puck there and, uh, everybody’s gone on to do wonderful, great things. And, and so we. Uh, we’re doing cooking classes and they were usually a lot of French based classes, but also basic techniques and so forth. And I went in first as a volunteer then as a teacher and then as the manager of the cooking school.

And so I really met everybody and everyone, you know, Juliana Boucher, Ali, all of the famous chefs came walking through and teaching classes with. 

[00:15:40] Joe Towne: So it was like an in-person masterclass. One person 

[00:15:43] Pamela Sheldon Johns: would say, well, we’ll always have to start clockwise. And the next would come in and say, you always have to start counterclockwise, you know?

And you just decide. But I guess the most fundamental person that I met there was Joe and he is a chef and he [00:16:00] is a chef in Los Angeles. And so I said to him, can I come, just do a stodge and work work in the kitchen a little bit, just was fascinated with this idea. So he let me start coming on two nights a week, Friday and Saturday nights.

So I was working all day at this school, going to the ma the other cooking school at night and two nights a week, going to the restaurant in Beverly. And I learned a lot. I really did. I worked very hard. I was the oldest one there. I was like 29. And, um, I knew that there, it was a French kitchen. They were going to be tough on me.

And, and they were one day I called in sick because it was a Friday. And I said, got a sore throat. I don’t, I don’t, I’m a volunteer by the way. Right? With the, with the widest tennis shoes of anyone there. And they said, they said, you’re not coming in tonight. Manager said, I go, no, I don’t want to make other people sick with my sore throat.

He goes, well, you better be here tomorrow night. So Saturday [00:17:00] night I showed up and, uh, chef wants to see you in his office. So he calls me in and he says, listen, don’t ever do that again. They had come to depend on me. I guess he goes, he goes, I want to hire you to work for me. And that way, if you do this again, I can fire you.

And so that began a year of working in Maxwell. the restaurant at that time was joking special and it was fabulous. It was fabulous. That’s when I changed from being a teacher to a line cook. 

[00:17:35] Joe Towne: So where did your love for Italy and Italian food begin? Is it before or after you found out that you are Italian?

Yeah. Well, 

[00:17:43] Pamela Sheldon Johns: so I, you know, I apparently according to DNA, I, I’m not as Italian as my birth mother told me because I’m adopted, she told me I’m half Italian. And I always say from here from my mouth to my stomach is, you know, his Italian part. And I think that’s [00:18:00] probably true now I am a citizen, so I am Italian, but, um, my, my influence was.

Probably from the first trip that I made to Italy. 

[00:18:12] Joe Towne: Is this the camping trip with your, with your friends? Well, I was so curious, so, so cute. 

[00:18:22] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Well, anyway, uh, yeah, I think I remember the flavors at the time and they were flavors is I see it on people’s faces when they come here, especially for the first time.

And they, they put a bite of tomato in their mouth. It’s like they never had a tomato before the flavor just explodes. And your, you know, your whole set, all your senses light up. And I, and I remember having that experience over and over and over, and I was very drawn to that and I was very drawn to the people too, because they were, they were [00:19:00] warm and kind and helpful and 

[00:19:03] Joe Towne: they still are.

And now you’re there. So I don’t know if this. Predated you starting the Santa Barbara chapter of the slow food movement. But for those who don’t know, can you share with us what is the slow food movement? So food? 

[00:19:18] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Um, I not sure I can tell you precisely the year that it started, but, uh, it was started by a man named Carlo Petrini and Piermont day, which is Northwestern part of Italy.

He, his idea was to create this, uh, organization. You could say to fight fast food because he had just seen the first McDonald’s go into. He, you know, he created this idea. That’s not go to fast food, let’s stay with slow food, bring people to the table, um, have great food and great experiences, support the people who grow and make the food and so on.

And, and it was an enchanting idea and a [00:20:00] wonderful idea. And so I got very involved in it and, um, decided to start a chapter in S in Santa Barbara. And that went pretty well now though, slow food if I may. Um, so food has become, has evolved to become more about, uh, diversity, diversity, and obviously one of the things that makes our tomato tastes so good here is that there’s no GMO.

People are fighting to bring it in. And it’s, I hope that we can hold them back. Biodiversity is very important in terms of not just ingredients, but also the way people prepare, prepare them.

[00:20:49] Joe Towne: Genetically modified foods can sometimes get confusing when they’re included in the same definition as something like cross-breeding, which has led to things like seedless, grapes, and [00:21:00] watermelons, or we can irradiate foods to change their genetic structure, which has led to unique colors in foods like the Ruby red grapefruit, the term bio engineered refers to food that contains genetic material.

That’s been modified through certain laboratory techniques. And for which the modification could not be obtained through conventional breeding or found in nature. That is what is mostly being referred to when hearing GMO or genetically modified organisms. GM crops are usually one type of crop mano diversity, which is fundamentally at odds with the concept of biodiversity.

The impact of planting just one crop is that it can occupy large surface areas at a side effect, is that it can wipe out entire ecosystems. Most GM crops fall into one of two categories engineered to be resistant to insects or chemical herbicides. When herbicides [00:22:00] are used on resistant crops over time, the weeds develop resistance leading to the use of even more chemicals.

Little is understood yet about the health effects of GMOs, but recent studies have shown animals fed with GM containing feed can develop health problems in many parts of the world, including the EU studies on GM crops can be carried out by the same companies who produce them casting doubt on the quality and bias of their data.

The pitch of GM crops is that they will help be the solution to food shortages and other social problems. When in actuality, they have reduced biodiversity, polluted landscapes, they threatened the future of small-scale farming and they reduced the food security of the world’s poorest people in Italy, a significant part of its agricultural and food economy is based upon identity and the variety of local products.

This would be threatened by the introduction of GMO seeds, [00:23:00] which can easily be spread on the wind. Italy leads the European fight to keep GM farming out of its country. 62% of Italian surveyed believe that GMO foods are unsafe while in the U S that number is 38. In addition to Italy, those countries with the highest percentage of respondents who believed that GMO foods were generally unsafe to eat were Russia with nearly 70%.

67% and India, 58%, besides the U S some of the countries with the highest number of respondents who believe GMO foods were safe to eat, where Sweden at 38% in Canada at 27%. 

[00:23:42] Pamela Sheldon Johns: And so if you go to the slow food.com site, you’ll see they’re protected products, products that they have identified as something that if we’re not careful, we might lose them, which I think is so noble.

[00:23:57] Joe Towne: It is part of the tradition to save [00:24:00] seeds and, um, help collect them. Yeah. 

[00:24:03] Pamela Sheldon Johns: In fact, they had the, just had, or they’re going to have a conference on seed saving. I’m a seed saver, 

[00:24:12] Joe Towne: not yet just on level compost. So I’m excited for a day when I can reframe my relationship to gardening. Unfortunately, my love for food started early, but gardening was a source of punishment from my parents.

So I had to weed the garden as punishment for being loud in the morning. W. So there were a few things that they did and, and it really turned me off from wanting to spend time in this soil. And so I’m reclaiming that we now have a garden box and you know, it’s our second year with it. 

[00:24:48] Pamela Sheldon Johns: It does take time for me, it’s a meditation, pulling them, pulling the weeds out.

And I talked to them. I’m like, you don’t get to be there. And even just, you know, more [00:25:00] recently I’ve been working a lot in my vineyard. And for part of the time I listened to podcasts because it’s like, you know, very peaceful and calming. But then when I turned that off and I’m totally with the vines and becomes a meditation and it, it lets me release a lot of the stuff that I carried out on.

Like 

[00:25:20] Joe Towne: that’s beautiful. I, I, I look forward to having that kind of an active meditation as opposed to the more inward kind. So two of the other principles. Of slow food seemed to be about locally sourced products and seasonal vegetables. And I know that that is for those of us who want to participate.

That’s part of the reason why going to the farmer’s market can be so great because we can find all the things that are in season, as opposed to perhaps some of those other manufactured plants and vegetables that you were, you were talking about earlier

100 years ago, most people knew the best time to pick [00:26:00] blueberries or which vegetables would grow best in their area. And when modern convenience has caused us to lose touch with these basic ideas, we can simply eat fresh berries in January, or have avocado toast every day in the ancient Indian practice of Iyer Veda.

There is a special term for eating seasonally food. We look at a menu and see local seasonal food. But do we know what that means and why it matters first? It’s tastier. Have you noticed tomatoes grown in your neighbors? Summer garden tastes much sweeter than the ones you buy at the supermarket. When food is mass produced to meet global demand, it tends to suffer from a lack of flavor.

Second, it’s more nutritious beyond more nutrients. When broccoli is grown during its peak season, hint the fall, it has a higher vitamin C content than broccoli grown in the spring. Third, it won’t need extra chemicals to ripen it or [00:27:00] preserve it. So your body has to process less of it out of your system.

Fourth, it’s better for the environment. Think about it. How far did the pair or eggplant you bought at your local grocery store travel before it was stocked in the shelves? Did it come from your local farmer? Did it drive across the country? Did it arrive by airplane or container? Fifth eating with the seasons.

We’ll save you money when a fruit or veggie is in season, it’s abundant and not surprisingly it’s available to lower price because grapefruit is in season during the winter. So the supply is higher. It drives down the price, but if you’re craving grapefruit in July, you’ll probably pay twice as much as you would in December.

Even if some items are slightly more expensive, let’s get curious as to why perhaps it’s significantly better quality, quality of flavor of nutrients and less coated with toxins or grown with genetic modifications. Ultimately, we have a [00:28:00] choice. Would we rather pay the farmer or the. What is the principle behind locally sourced and seasonal vegetables?

How do you make sense of those bill that you mean? 

[00:28:11] Pamela Sheldon Johns: It, it seems obvious the cycle of nature and, and the things that things that occur at different times of the year. But I think also a bigger concept that we have to consider is the carbon footprint. Because if you, if you are having tomatoes, you know, you, you live in California, you can have tomatoes almost year round.

Not everybody has that climate. So if you’re getting, you’re getting tomatoes in a climate where they’re not growing at that period, they’re coming from somewhere. So that’s the first problem. The transportation of them. Second problem is that most of the time they’re picked green. Um, because they, they travel better.

They’re not going to get as bruised, but the other problem then is, uh, they don’t always ripe in with the same amount of [00:29:00] flavor to them. And then sometimes gas is used. It’s a sounds terrible. It’s a gas, that’s an same kind of gas. It’s emitted from a banana as it ripens. I can’t remember the exact name of it.

Maybe ethylene or something like that. 

[00:29:18] Joe Towne: Let’s talk about gas in this case, banana gas or two H not to be confused with Detroit and star wars. This is the thing that causes bananas and anything else near it to ripen. It’s a gas called ethene formerly ethylene, and it’s also known as the plant hormone.

Ethylene gas was first discovered about a hundred years ago. When a student noticed that trees growing near gas, streetlamps were dropping leaves more rapidly than those planted away from the lamps. So, how does it work? This gas softens the fruit by breaking down cell walls and turning starch into sugar.

It also causes the disappearance [00:30:00] of acids, fun facts about this process, bananas ripen at 60 to 70 degrees. Some fruits like oranges don’t respond to ethene apples, potatoes, even avocados, all brown at the same rate. As bananas, we often will harvest fruits just before ripening has started, like tomatoes, bananas, pears, melons, and this way they can survive transit and make their way home to our kitchens.

Some people have found ways to make things ripe and faster, such as putting their fruit in a sealed paper bag, do not use a plastic bag, which will trap moisture and may backfire on you causing the fruit to rot. And for those curious on how you say banana in. It’s banana. I mean, you say anyway, 

[00:30:51] Pamela Sheldon Johns: that is then put into a cell with plants that need to ripen and that none of that is natural or [00:31:00] good in our, I think our bodies really have a hard time and I’m, I’m mostly concerned about the GMO aspects of it, because if you, if you modify a tomato, for example, to, to always, you know, a tomato has a green green top on it, often when you buy it.

And then it slowly ripens, well, people who sell, they want beautiful, perfect red tomatoes. They sell them. They want to have took out the genes that made, you know, made this all red. Okay. But in those little genes that were taken out was flavored genes also. And so then we start, we start to lose our flavor and we start eating poorly because we want to put more salt on it.

She is whatever, nothing wrong with salt and cheese, but everything in moderation. 

[00:31:49] Joe Towne: Sure. Yeah. And, and it really seems like the way you were describing your first trip to Italy, you got to experience what those fresh ingredients can taste [00:32:00] like. And for those people who haven’t experienced that yet, it could be pretty awakening for them to have a bite of that food.

[00:32:07] Pamela Sheldon Johns: He says it’s mind blowing. 

[00:32:10] Joe Towne: Absolutely. Pamela, one of my favorite books that you’ve written and that I’ve, I’ve been fortunate to study with you on, on some of the cuisine of is Cucina, Cucina, Povera. What can you tell us about that and how might it help people think differently about food right now? 

[00:32:29] Pamela Sheldon Johns: It, you know, it goes back to a time when people didn’t have a lot.

And so they were making do with what they had, which would be in season. And, uh, and what was grown locally because here we have 20 different regions and 20 different climates and 20 different really groups of people, uh, who in each space to us, Guinea is very different than Sicily. For example, obviously climatically, but also the people that totally been United for about a hundred, a little over [00:33:00] 150 years,

[00:33:04] Joe Towne: modern day, Italy is comprised of over 20 different regions or red Joanie. It hasn’t always been one country. In fact, for many centuries, the Italian peninsula was a fragmented conglomeration of states in the 1790s when Austria and France were at war, the French invaded the Italian peninsula and consolidated many of their states into Republic.

But then the Austrian and Russian armies pushed them out in 1799. So long republics until Napoleon rose to power. And they were once again, conquered by the French under Napoleon, the peninsula was divided into three entities, chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry, no, wait that’s Neapolitan ice cream, right? It was the Northern parts of Italy, which were annexed to be part of the French empire.

There was the kingdom of Italy. And then there was the kingdom of Naples run by Napoleon’s younger brother with the downfall of [00:34:00] Napoleon in 1814, eventually Italian states where we constituted in the 1860s in the south, you had a kingdom that was formed when the kingdom of Sicily merged with the kingdom of Naples, which was officially known as the kingdom of Sicily, since both kingdoms were named Sicily, they were collectively known as the two Sicily.

The king of the two Sicily’s was overthrown by Giuseppe Garibaldi in 1860. Garibaldi is deemed one of the makers of modern Italy along with Cavour. And Masini up north, you had the house of Savoy. The Royal house of Savoy is one of the oldest Royal families in the world. Having been established in 1,003 in the Savoy region, which included parts of Northern Italy, France, and Switzerland in the 15th century, the Savoys were attacked by France, retreated to Turin and eventually sided with the arch enemy of the French, the Habsburgs who were the neighbors of the Goldbergs and who also used a video camera to [00:35:00] document their family’s crazy life.

No, wait, that didn’t happen. What did happen is that there was a great political and social movement that resulted in the consolidation of different states into a single state, the kingdom of Italy called. meaning resurgence resort memento. I don’t know if I’m saying that right. And while it wasn’t, the first time Italy was United, Italy was unified by Rome in the third century, BC, this time it stuck the U S recognized the Italian independence in 1861, mostly to keep the Confederacy from hiding it ships along the Italian coastline by 1866, Italy added Venice and in 1878, incorporated Rome.

And then by the 1870s, the Italian immigration to the U S began to increase. We all industrialized and traded with one another. And except for the hiccup known as world war II, which is a story for another time, we’ve been pretty tight ever since. 

[00:35:57] Pamela Sheldon Johns: And, and so you have, [00:36:00] uh, you have this kind of very local sense of food.

People saying here’s the grain that we grow here and what will we do with it? And, um, I think that we can look at it now as a way of being thrifty, perhaps, or maybe being careful and not wasting food. Um, it it’s really the best tasting food. I see a lot of chefs now you’ve been here, are doing more creative things with our ingredients and they’re delicious and they’re beautiful night.

You know, I like to have that once in a while, but there’s nothing like a good Ragu on peachy. 

[00:36:40] Joe Towne: Absolutely. Especially if Johnny Johns is helping roll it out. I wonder, you know, it seems to me that some of those principles really can impact how we think about food, not just in terms of waste and repurposing and bringing food back, [00:37:00] but also the idea of something like Chestnut flour being a tremendous source of protein.

So somebody who in order to have energy in the morning, grab some of that. And I feel like traveling here recently, you know, I stopped off at the only thing that was open at 3:00 AM at the airport was Starbucks. And I’m looking at this food and trying to decide, am I going to put this in my body so that I have something in there?

And at the same time, It helps me thinking about my normal routines and what I reach for and the things that might sustain me throughout the day. And it seems like some of what people had to do in hard times might really help us with our day-to-day habits that we are not aware of. 

[00:37:47] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Absolutely. But I also think we have to be careful because, you know, there’s been a real craze for the kale that we grow here in Tuscany.

It’s called Kabala NATO and [00:38:00] it is very healthy. In fact, you look at it, it just looks like a bite full of vitamins and minerals, and it is packed with that. Some people have just gone a little too far with it and eat to exclusion of other good foods. And so I, I’m not a fanatic about, I mean, if I, if I’m hungry and it’s three in the morning and I’m at Starbucks, you know, I’m going to get that lemon.

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t think it, you know, that’s not going to ruin us, but when it becomes a habit, maybe it’s something else. But kale, kale is very good. Can eat it every single day, but you still have to have other, other proteins, some beans, some rice, some other things to balance them. 

[00:38:44] Joe Towne: That makes a lot of sense.

Pamela always wanted to ask you about your philosophy. I wonder, do you have a word or a phrase that guides your life 

[00:38:55] Pamela Sheldon Johns: in terms of food for life? 

[00:38:58] Joe Towne: Sure. It could be about life, this [00:39:00] one. And then if you want, you can also share about food. 

[00:39:03] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Okay. Well, I don’t know, just my own personal philosophy. To be kind for me, kindnesses in generous.

I try to, I don’t even try as can help it. Sometimes in my daughter gets a little frustrated when I see an old person stumble on the street when I stopped the car and turn around and go back and I’m, can I help you? And usually they’re like, no, leave me alone. But it’s just, it just something in me, the, you know, I was never a girl scout, but I should have been, um, it’s really it’s, you know, for a while there was a podcast on called kind of world, I think.

And, and I just, or anytime I hear or read about a kind act, I’d start to cry because I feel like our world is not very kind right now. And. [00:40:00] I want it to be, I want it to be kinder. So I’m just going to be as kind as I can in, in, by the way, I like your shirt. Is that kind of, 

[00:40:10] Joe Towne: yes. Yeah. It seemed to be designed by an artisan near Montepulciano in Tuscany.

Okay. So how about food? Do you, do you have a cooking philosophy? 

[00:40:23] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I think, um, I have aiding philosophy and that, you know, that this Springs forth from the cooking part of it, but I really, really liked to eat here in Italy, especially the traditional regional food. So, um, wherever I am, I’m going to seek out what, what are the people eating that they’ve been eating for centuries?

It’s just fascinating to me, but you know, like I said, I I’m, I’m not an exclusive. I will eat a little bit of everything, especially someone’s cooking for me. You can make a grilled cheese sandwich and I’ll be [00:41:00] like, Ooh, that’s yummy. You know, I’m so happy. Uh, but on the other hand, uh, I love the idea of understanding the history and the culture, because there’s so much more than just taking a piece of vegetable and cooking it and then putting olive oil on it.

There’s a, there’s a whole history behind that. And I love 

[00:41:22] Joe Towne: that. Absolutely is. And the idea of how much there is to learn. I can understand why it can be a lifelong study. That what would you say are some of the common misconceptions about Italian cuisine? Because growing up on the east coast of the United States in New York, my understanding of what Italian food was is Italian American cuisine.

It is really almost nothing. Like what I’ve come to understand is traditional Italian cuisine. But 

[00:41:54] Pamela Sheldon Johns: it is in a way because the people immigrated. A lot of them came over in the 18 [00:42:00] hundreds and they didn’t have access to the ingredients that they, they lived with over here. And so they would, they would make their dish with, with what was available.

And eventually it kind of evolves into a dish that, that Italian Americans eat and they all come, you know, a lot of people come over here and ask for truly, this is so stereotypical, but there’s this spaghetti with the meatball. And we can give you spaghetti and we can give you meatballs that this rare, I mean, I used to say never, ever, would you find it here?

And it’s not true. And Sicily, I found some people in Sisley that put meatballs in their spaghetti, but it’s just different, you know, it’s, it’s a different, and so if people are coming over with that, having grown up with that and, and I don’t want to, I don’t want to say that’s not Italian because they will be like, well, my grandmother made that.

And then it’d be, it becomes [00:43:00] a Nancy Verde bar as a rider. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of her. She wrote a charming book called they called it macaroni. And it’s about those kinds of dishes that evolved from the, you know, blending what was local. And, but we do it here too. You know, every everybody, so PhD is, we mentioned earlier is a hand-rolled pasta.

That looks like a fat spaghetti made just with flour and water and is called in multiple channels. But over in Montalcino, which is just less than an hour away, they call it pinchy and an hour away in Umbria. They have another name for it. So it’s just, you know, we grow up with some. 

[00:43:47] Joe Towne: I think I grew up thinking about chicken Parmesan and men have got to, um, and not pens and Nella salad or different shapes of pasta.

And I didn’t know that not only did the different shapes represent traditions, [00:44:00] maybe particular styles and greens of different regions, like you were saying some maybe without salt, because salt was expensive and attacks, so they needed to save it. But the idea of shapes of pasta retaining more sauce was fascinating to me, the idea that sometimes these shapes are designed to be more intentional than just beautiful.

[00:44:23] Pamela Sheldon Johns: What do you know, just the way you say manicotti men have got, tells me that, that you learned about it from a person who was probably from system. Because the dialect of the language has only evolved in this period of time that people have been United. So, um, the Italian language is relatively new. Every region had their own dialect, uh, and, and the way they still pronounce things is, is very much, instead of Paul Maduro, you will hear Pomodoro if I meet an American Italian Italian-American and I asked them, tell me what [00:45:00] your, your grandmother cooked for you.

And I’ll tell you where she was from. So by the way, they pronounce it and the way they describe the dish, I can, I can figure out which rate’s not a hundred percent, but I’m pretty good. 

[00:45:15] Joe Towne: I know you are. Okay. I’m so curious to know about this balance between tradition and evolution. So the idea of the grandmother recipes and keeping them exact the way that grandma made them versus what somebody.

Brilliant and creative, like Massimo is doing with food. How do we balance tradition with evolution and seeing what’s 

[00:45:40] Pamela Sheldon Johns: you mean Massimo Bottura Massimo Bottura 

[00:45:43] Joe Towne: every 

[00:45:43] Pamela Sheldon Johns: single thing he does has has roots and the tradition and, you know, he, he’s, uh, he’s really romantic. It’s a poet about what he’s creating because you, you will take and, um, there’s a story, there’s a story behind it.

And if he did [00:46:00] construct a dish and, and takes the, the sauce here and the filling here and, and makes a completely different thing, he wants you to put it in your mouth and remember the traditional one.

[00:46:15] Joe Towne: Massimo Bottura is an Italian restaurant tour and the chef patron of Osteria Francescana, a three Michelin star restaurant based in Modena, Italy. His restaurant has been listed in the top five of the world’s 50 best restaurant awards since 2010, though, considered as one of the best chefs in the world.

These days, he was once harshly criticized for attempting to change the grandmother recipes handed down for generations. It was a risk and not everyone showed up at his restaurant. At first, finally, someone from outside of Italy saw what he was attempting to do. Respect the essence of Italian tradition.

While being curious about what else was possible with food. [00:47:00] He grew up under the kitchen table at his grandmother’s knees. This taught him a love and a passion for. And also the tradition that his grandmother shared about food and recipes, his concept is to juxtapose culinary tradition and innovation with contemporary art and design.

You can read about it in his book, never trust a skinny Italian chef. There was an earthquake in 2012 in Northern Italy and millions of pounds of locally produced. Parmigiano Reggiano was at risk of spoiling putting entire ecosystems of food producers out of business. Masimo, worked with local producers to raise awareness of the situation and developed a recipe for a result though, a variation on the Roman pasta dish Catcheway Pepe using the broken wheels of cheese.

Fortunately it worked and the industry recovered in part thanks to his efforts. In 2016, he founded food for soul. A non-profit association designed to [00:48:00] empower communities, to fight against food waste in the interest of social inclusion and individual wellbeing. The organization has had some success and replicated their efforts in Milan Rio de Janeiro, London, Paris, Mona Polonia, and Naples Masimo works with his wife, Laura, their love story, and his love story for food are featured in season one of chef’s table.

He’s 

[00:48:27] Pamela Sheldon Johns: not changing the flavors he is moving them around, I would say. Um, but you know, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of playing with food that, you know, sometimes it just doesn’t work. And, you know, somebody who puts a piece of coconut on the plate and serves, you know, just things that don’t make sense at all.

There’s got to taste good. It has to have some sense of, of going together. I think the same thing will happen here and I’m bent on remembering tradition [00:49:00] and especially within a regional framework. And, and I think there’s still a lot of interest in doing that. I know, uh, I’m seeing more books and articles and videos come out about granny’s doing the cooking and this kind of thing.

And I love that. I really do. I mean, I think there’s, there’s going to have to be room for both. And I don’t mind having a creative dish once in a while. And, but like I told you before, I really loved that. The simple. 

[00:49:29] Joe Towne: Yeah, I, I think what’s so exciting is I’m hearing that there’s a care in honoring the ingredients and it’s almost like the form is being deconstructed, but the essence remains the same and it’s taking on a new form with the same principles on purpose and with a story behind it.

And so if we can keep some of those things in mind, that feels different than let me just see what happens when I put a bunch of random things on a plate, uh, and then [00:50:00] see what happens. So Pamela, sometimes I will see a label on some Italian food and it’ll say something like DOCG, can you help me understand?

Like, what is the, what does that mean in terms of its. Well, 

[00:50:16] Pamela Sheldon Johns: DOCG were referring to two wines doc. DOCG also IGT and IGT and whatever. Anyway, wine is. Do you know what the Appalachians are in France, different Appalachians. So you can grow Chardonnay here. You can grow champagne here and you, if you grow that same grape and you try to make the same kind of wine in another area, you can’t call it champagne.

Okay. So the same thing happens in Italy and the doc is the first step actually to getting it the DOCG and it tells you that you have to follow a certain discipline, which involves the variety of the grape, the tear rock. That [00:51:00] is the earth that it’s grown in the zone that it’s grown in the way that it’s produced.

And the way that it’s aged. So there’s, there’s rules, very strict rules about this. For example, Brunello is a DOCG wine from Montalcino in Tuscany, and you cannot grow that anywhere else. Uh, and the grape is also evolved from the grapes are interesting because it’s a Sandra Basey grape, but it, it has been, uh, chosen over time selected, I guess you’d say to have certain qualities in this case, a grape that’s larger and has a thicker skin and the thicker skin means more tenon.

And then the, then the wine can age longer. And that’s why we get these great big flavors out of Brunello. But if you, if you grow another grape and in the same area, and this has happened and people gotten in [00:52:00] trouble grows another grape there and make wine and you put a label on this is Bruno. They won’t pass.

So the DOCG wines also have to go through a taste test and a lot of, uh, in it show that they’ve done the right process of it. Um, though, oh, go ahead. 

[00:52:21] Joe Towne: Well, I was going to ask about foods. I was going to start with San Marzano tomatoes. So, uh, it seems like we can get those from a lot of different places and people call them San Marzano tomatoes, but that’s not what.

We’re eating 

[00:52:35] Pamela Sheldon Johns: right? So we have the same kind of cat or categories for food products, uh, instead of DOCG, which is the denomination of origin controlled and guaranteed for wine, we have the DOP, which is a denomination of the product, which is a food product DOP and, um, things like, um, traditional balsamic vinegars, and, [00:53:00] uh, different cheeses have been categorized like meats, like Kula, Tello, things like that.

And these summertime tomatoes are a DOP ELLs. So, so in, in the most classic sense, they should be grown in this particular zone near Naples and, uh, of the S one variety and B you know, it’s a very small production, so you can’t just have millions of cans like you see, so someone could get seeds of the tomatoes.

And they can take it to the states and grow it and package it, but you really shouldn’t call it San Marzano. And the same thing, the same thing happens with Sandra basic grapes. You can bring a Sangiovese grape over to California and make wonderful wine with it, but you can’t call it county. So it’s interesting.

And the it’s just the purity of something that you want to keep your 

[00:53:56] Joe Towne: eye on. I’m just so blown away by the depth [00:54:00] of flavor you were talking about Brunello and with you, I’ve been really fortunate to taste. Pardon me? Jonelle you know, from Parma or, you know, from its its region to have balsamico 50 years old.

I mean, the idea that these barrels. Are so ancient and that older than me and the depth of flavor that comes from that kind of patience and how long we can wait for these products. It just, the payoff from that, if it’s done with that integrity is pretty remarkable. Yeah. Um, 

[00:54:37] Pamela Sheldon Johns: it’s hard to refuse that, that, that so much time and passion has gone into something.

Passion’s not a word I use very often, but in this case, you have to think that you start with a hundred kilos of grapes and you end up with a tiny bottle this size. Yeah. And then 12 years or more of aging, [00:55:00] it’s a commitment 

[00:55:02] Joe Towne: that really takes grit. My understanding is the definition of grit is passion and perseverance over time.

And we often think about that in terms of like football. That’s a gritty football player, but the idea that it, uh, a farmer can be greeted. Because that passion is what keeps that sticktuitiveness over time and to go through that process so that we can enjoy one tiny bite of something. Delicious is fascinating.

Yeah. 

[00:55:31] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I appreciate that too. And I feel the same way when it’s sort of like that thing I was saying at the beginning about feeling gifted when someone cooks for me because there’s time and there’s energy and there’s thought that goes into it. No matter how simple the dishes I’m making this for 

[00:55:47] Joe Towne: you. Th the idea to me, of having people cook for you.

I imagine that some of that must have been part of your experience as you traveled and discovered what to write about since you’ve [00:56:00] written 17 books and many of them about Italian cuisine, you’ve had to talk to a lot of different people. Um, um, I’m wondering how important is it to go in with curiosity?

How do you get people to talk to you? That’s, 

[00:56:15] Pamela Sheldon Johns: you know, it’s so funny because before we started talking, I was thinking about, I’m wondering if he’s going to ask me about being curious. I don’t know why I thought that, but I feel so grateful that I have a curiosity. And, and so, you know, for me to write the books has been, has been a wonderful experience because I can, um, I’m curious about where did gelato come from and how, you know, how did that happen and who started making it and how did, how all these questions that I want to answer for myself, I get to do it in the name of work.

And I get to go ask and find out all these things. My, when I did the pizza book, I had the best time, cause I spent a good [00:57:00] amount of time in Naples and. And I took taxis different places. Every time I got in a taxi, I would ask the driver, okay, is it marinara for you or margarita? And they would answer this.

They would tell me right away. And I would say why? Because, well, because my uncle has the pizzeria on this street, you know, and he started family’s place, but it was margarita one, by the way. But, you know, it’s a way of, uh, of starting a chat with people, which is kind of the, how I do my books, you know, especially Cucina Povera that you like, I just went and, you know, if I didn’t have a connection or a recommendation to go see someone about a certain product.

Um, I would just go sit in a bar and it’s not like cocktails bar, but you know, we have a cappuccino kind of bar and I’d see, sit at a table next to an older person who was alone. And there was no problem. Starting a chat. [00:58:00] 

[00:58:01] Joe Towne: Naples is the regional capital of companion and the third largest city in Italy, after Rome and Milan with over 3 million people founded by Greeks in the first millennium, BC Naples is one of the oldest, continuously inhabited urban areas in the world.

It’s been the epicenter of some major moments in Italian history. It was a capital of the Baroque period. It was an important center during the Renaissance. Launching artistic revolutions, starting with artists like Caravaggio, but also bring back philosophies that stress the inherent goodness and problem solving ability of humanity.

Naples is widely known for its wealth of historical museums, which contain one of the most extensive collections of artifacts of the Roman empire in the world. It’s street. Art is as captivating as its Baroque collections. It has world famous archeological, treasures, diverse architecture, and the port of [00:59:00] Naples is one of the most important in Europe.

It’s also the city, many Italians departed from, as they sought out a better life elsewhere in world war two Naples was the first Italian city to rise up against Nazi military occupation, and it was successfully liberated of the invading German forces. It’s dealt with record unemployment, natural disaster.

But in the last two decades, Naples has been completely regenerated and today is a thriving hub of culture and history not to mention Naples is a food paradise. It’s coffee. Culture is unparalleled it’s markets boast everything from bitter greens to San Marzano, tomatoes to anarchy apples. If you go to the local fish markets, fish is so fresh that the eels are still wriggling.

Most importantly, it’s the homeplace of pizza as well as numerous other local dishes, restaurants in the Naples area have earned the most [01:00:00] stars from the Michelin guide of any Italian province. 

[01:00:04] Pamela Sheldon Johns: And so then I would find out all kinds of things. I went to this wonderful little island called Keppra, which you saw in the book.

I think that, um, with the idea that during the world war two people at least were able to, along the coastline and islands were at least able to eat seafood to survive. So I wanted to find some interesting stories about seafood. And in this way I met this woman who was the last woman on the island to speak the dialect.

And then with her, the dialect went away. Uh, I said, okay, well, I, you know, I just know you’re going to have all kinds of great stories to tell me about seafood and how people survived on that. She looked at me and she said, we didn’t eat any seafood during the war, or even right after, because the Germans put minds all around the island and we couldn’t go out.

I [01:01:00] go, what did you eat? She said rabbit. We ate rabbit. It was bout two fold. I mean, I get goosebumps thinking about her. I know at the most wonderful people working on that book, I would love to love to do it again. Something like that, maybe. 

[01:01:16] Joe Towne: Well, that curiosity, I’m wondering, you mentioned, um, where you are, is Tuscany and from a geographic perspective, what is so special about this region?

That. Some of the most delicious and important foods and grapes and wines, you know what I 

[01:01:37] Pamela Sheldon Johns: think, um, I think that’s a valid question, but I think that, um, they all have their wonderful foods and Tuscany is so well-known, it’s, it’s more well-known perhaps than truly been at-sea or , um, you might know certain dishes, but we didn’t even know what pesto [01:02:00] was 40 years ago.

And we thought all, oh, he thought all Italian food was what those Italian women in New York were making in. There were mostly from the south 80% of them came from the south. And so we had no clue about how other people ate the products that, that you love the wines, the olive oil. Th there, there are products like that in other regions, olive oil.

No, because Tuscany is about the most Northern region that you can grow. Olives. The APA nine mountains come running up the spine of Italy and turn it Florence and go out to the sea. And above that, the temperatures are very. The random, temperature’s too cold for olives up north. In fact, that whole culture up there is all about animal fat and seed fats.

So now there’s some tiny little pockets where all it’s grown and making great oil too, but it’s not as known as Tuscany and [01:03:00] south of here. 

[01:03:01] Joe Towne: There’s something about a microclimate that Tuscany has. Is that true? What is a microclimate or is that no longer the case because climates are changing. I don’t know.

This 

[01:03:12] Pamela Sheldon Johns: is still there, but Tuscany has many micro-climates because think about Tuscany as a large region, we have Bappa nine mountains where the chestnuts and in those kinds of things grow, we have this seaside, which is very much California, like at times, um, then we have the rolling Hills in the middle.

So, and in those rolling Hills, even you will find wines that different from place to place in Tuscany because of the little microclimates that we have there. And that hail that I had last year, nobody else had not even, not even around us, you know? So you have this idea that could’ve just been a storm that dropped down right there, but there were definitely always a few degrees of warmer where we are [01:04:00] then up among typical.

So, um, there’s the micro climate aspect. I think, you know, we are definitely being affected by climate change because, uh, the, the, the country is getting warmer as you come up from the south. And that is the reason that in 2014, we had a zero olive harvest because this fly that was migrating up as the weather warmed up to, it did just fine and tusk.

It took us all by surprise. And, um, we’ve been dealing with it since last year was pretty good year, but I’m not going with them be testing and I’ll touch metal too. We’ll see how this year ends up, but the climates change a lot. If you think about Sicily, just a few miles from Africa and you think of

up in the north, touching out. [01:05:00] We have wildly different things that grow flowers are different from place to place and the way people use them flour for bread or pasta or something like that. It’s fun to think about 

[01:05:13] Joe Towne: when I think of the word Somalia, I would often think of a person who is an expert in wine, but you are an olive oil Somalia who makes the best olive oil.

[01:05:24] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Yeah. You can’t ask that. First of all, taste is so subjective. You know, we can’t, we really can’t be objective. What, what the, what we do is wine taster. I mean, olive oil, tasters and wine tasters is that we put our opinion, but we can pull out defective, smells and tastes. And that’s what we’re trained to do.

And there’s a lot of different kinds of defects that can happen with olive oil, um, from the way that it’s milled, or maybe even before that, from the way it’s picked and how long it stands before it’s milk, the way that it’s milled, the way [01:06:00] that it’s, uh, processed. And then the way that it’s stored.

There’s just so many elements that can happen. And that would be another whole podcast to talk about it. But, uh, we can, we can, we can smell and taste these defects and identify what they are. That’s, that’s what we do, but I haven’t told you this, but last year it may be that I had the COVID. Virus. I was quite sick.

This was before we really knew anything about it. I was quite sick for three weeks with some respiratory problems and just really bad feeling. And when I came out a bit, I had a bad smell in my nose that I have still, I still have it a year and a half later. And, uh, I, I, you know, I’ve heard about people losing their smell.

This isn’t that I can still smell things I can still, I can, but I don’t trust my smell now because it’s got a [01:07:00] shadow over it. But the interesting thing that’s happened is just in the last couple of weeks, I’ve started. I don’t smell the bad smell. I’m starting having good smells, but they’re, they’re coming from not from the environment.

I just recently was working in the vineyard and had the very strong sense of, of olives being milled at the front toil, fresh meal dollars and olive oil. And it was just like, Ooh.

So I, you know, I’m not really calling myself as Samantha anymore because I can’t trust myself for my 

[01:07:41] Joe Towne: well, I’m so glad some of that is coming back and I can only imagine what it’s like to lose a sense that you have relied on, uh, for so long. I feel lost, 

[01:07:52] Pamela Sheldon Johns: but I, you know, cause I still enjoy flavors and I’m, you know, not that it’s just this little extra [01:08:00] bonus smell.

Anyway, I’m on a silence for my nose. 

[01:08:06] Joe Towne: I wonder if you can, um, talk a little bit about Jewish cuisine and. So you did your genealogy and discovered that you are part Jewish. And I wonder what does it mean to be Jewish in Tuscany? And what can you share with us about the Jewish flavors of a place like PT?

Guliano 

[01:08:24] Pamela Sheldon Johns: just born Jew. I am no a lot. I am curious, as we mentioned and I’m, and I’m learning a lot about it, but, um, no, I think that, uh, the, the food traditions are very interesting to what I have studied and learned is that, you know, one thing that a lot of people, when they’re cooking and in the states and they’re making Italian food, which we don’t call it, I don’t like to call it Italian food.

I would say tonight, I’m making tusk and a Tuscan dish, or I’m making a Sicilian dish, but. When they’re cooking [01:09:00] Italian, uh, they will take to start with the cell-free dough, which, you know what that is usually carrots, celery, and onion, but they’ll also chop up some garlic in it. A lot of people do that, nothing wrong with that, but you will almost never find garlic and onion in the same dish in traditional Italian cuisines.

And, uh, and I’ve said that forever. And I know that a lot of the reason you put you not you, but people put garlic in there is because your ingredients don’t have as much flavor. And garlic is a good, good helper there. And so all these years I’ve been saying, no, we just don’t do that. We don’t put garlic and onion together or whatever.

Now some chefs are doing it. Okay. But what I learned when I did that, the piece, I don’t know if you saw, um, the, the thing that I did about. The, um, in the, there’s a lot of Jewish [01:10:00] tradition because in the, in the times, um, of, um, oh, what did they call it? When the church was inquisitions? Yeah. A lot of people left.

Um, they, they all got kicked out and a lot of them were Sephardic Jews and from Spain and they came to LaVar now and settled and a lot of their dishes, a lot of things that we eat today and the war, no cut, chew, go. There’s fish too. And all these things have Jewish roots in them. And guess what? A lot of garlic and onion together.

So I love being wrong about things. I loved finding the guy to serve spaghetti and meatballs and Sicily. I love finding garlic and onion and the Borno. And you know, it just goes to tell you can’t, you can’t say a hundred percent about anything. Oh, 

[01:10:49] Joe Towne: I love that. Okay. You made this leap, you left the place that you knew in the world and moved to Italy.

And I’m wondering for [01:11:00] you, what did it take inner strength wise conviction wise to, to make that kind of a move? 

[01:11:07] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Well, you know, it’s funny because a lot of people say, oh, you’re living your dream and I am living a dream life. Um, there’s no, no question about that, but it wasn’t the kind of dream that we sat around and talked over for a long time.

Um, what happened was that I was traveling, I was commuting from California to Italy two or three times a year, staying two or three months at a time. Uh, the rules were much more relaxed back then from 1992. Um, and working on my books, bringing people over to learn about the regional cuisines and so on.

And then we adopted our daughter in 1997 and she traveled with me. But then it was time for preschool or elementary school. And so it wasn’t going to leave her. [01:12:00] And, and so I said to Johnny, I, you, what do you think I could, we, could we go live there maybe? And she could go to school there. And he said, sure, 

[01:12:11] Joe Towne: why not?

I saw the list that he made. Uh, I thought that was so great. Learn another language looks good 

[01:12:19] Pamela Sheldon Johns: on the resume. He wrote

artists, you know, he can take his work anywhere. And, and so, yeah, well, it just happened. It snowballed, it happened so quickly, um, that if I I’m the kind of person that deliberates a little too long over things as a rule. And if I had stopped to think about it, uh, I would have found reasons to not do it. So my advice to you is don’t think about it too much.

[01:12:48] Joe Towne: We followed the omens. You had some momentum, they were thinking about school and your daughter and, um, Johnny, the artist was willing to come along for the ride. And you [01:13:00] all discovered this life together that you’ve built. And I’m curious, what has it taught you perspective wise to be living in Italy? Oh, 

[01:13:08] Pamela Sheldon Johns: so many things.

So, so many things, you know, I think that, um, I, you know, I, I can’t even really begin to list them, but I just say in general, I know that things are not going to actually go the way I thought they were on the first try. And so rather than get upset about it. Do it again, and it is part of the, as this country grows and becomes more modernized and becomes more part of the whole globalized world.

Um, things are changing a lot. Our, our life has changed in the last 20 years from, you know, the way we do business did business and in the beginning and the way we do business now, it’s not necessarily gotten easier a lot, you [01:14:00] know, lots done on the computer. Now that was, we didn’t even have fax machines.

You know, email was just like dialogue and it’s really changed a lot. And it was say all of this technology and all those kinds of things would make everything go faster, but it really doesn’t seem to, um, and they were just doing more, but it has also just, I think that it has, it slowed me down in a way that, um, When I first moved here, a friend in Florence said, just do one thing a day.

And I said, absurd. I mean, there’s no way I can get everything done and doing one thing in a day. Well, it turns out that’s all you could do. You could manage to get your visa, go through the process and do all that. And that’s it for today hours were, you know what they were middle of the day you eat, um, just, you know, adjusting to all of those kinds of things [01:15:00] 

[01:15:01] Joe Towne: as an American, you know, and as a country, we love to travel, but we have a reputation and I’ve been hearing this phrase for a while now being a good citizen of the world.

And I’m curious if you have any insight on what we can do to be better tourists when we’re visiting someplace, how can we be better? I 

[01:15:22] Pamela Sheldon Johns: guess you have to educate yourself a little bit about the culture. I mean there’s and those things, how could, you know, I feel the reverse effect when I go to the states because I’ve gotten, gotten these things ingrained in me now that I step into an elevator in the U S and I say, hello, good morning to everybody.

And they look at me like, I’m nuts, you know, but this what we do with, we don’t know every single person on the street, but, you know, if you happen to make eye contact on Jonah little things, you know, and, and also not just jumping into, I want this, this and this, but to say good day. And, uh, I I’m, I would like to know if you [01:16:00] have this product.

[01:16:03] Joe Towne: I don’t know those simple greetings mean a lot. You know, the last time I saw you live and in-person Lucas was five months old and wherever we went that you took us, people were like, I’ll move, look, beer. You know, how are you? And they were just including them. And we went to cooking classes where he hadn’t even taken a bite of food yet, but he was flying above a sautéing pan of shrimp and looking at this cheese, like he wanted to dig in and people were so lovely to him.

And we, we came home and we went to the farmer’s market and I could see Lucas looking around, why are people not talking to me? And, you know, we sort of laugh about it, but it also makes me a bit sad. The idea. Oh, it’s sad. 

[01:16:53] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Yeah. And it happened us too, because we were, you know, when I was going back and forth with my child, um, [01:17:00] you know, she would be here long enough that, you know, here comes somebody with the fingers like this.

She’s got her cheek and get in a pinch, you know, so that when we went back to the states, she’d be like this waiting and nobody, you know, and you just, it’s just different culture, but it’s a little heartbreaking too. So, you know, it’s just, I think most of the time you don’t have to know any rules to come here and be a good visitor.

You just have to be kind, 

[01:17:31] Joe Towne: there you go back to your philosophy, be kind, educate yourself a little bit and you know, maybe say, hello, does, 

[01:17:40] Pamela Sheldon Johns: if you just have a few words, people 

[01:17:42] Joe Towne: appreciate it. Yeah. I’m really, I’m getting the spirit. Have a growth mindset. And a lot of that, I come to understand through the work of Carol Dweck, who wrote the book on growth mindset.

And you just seem to live that with enthusiasm and [01:18:00] curiosity, and this idea of acknowledging what is, and going deeper and staying present and figuring things out. And it’s not to say that a fixed mindset doesn’t have value because when we’re talking about grandmother recipes, or if there’s a food that we know will be coming from.

We may make that because we know it already. And so when we’re craving reassurance and nurturing, being in our comfort zone can be tremendously valuable. And when we’re trying to be creative and explore and bring forth new alive ness, it seems like embracing that growth mindset can be valuable.

Modern psychology talks about how our belief systems about our own abilities and potential can drive our behavior and predict our success. Stanford psychologist, Carol Dweck wrote the book on mindset. Her work was a deep dive and inquiry into the power of our beliefs, both conscious and unconscious and how changing even the [01:19:00] simplest of them can have a profound impact on nearly every aspect of our lives.

Her work categorizes two types of mindset, a growth mindset, and a fixed mindset. A fixed mindset assumes that. How smart we are and our creative abilities are fixed. We are what we are. It also creates an urgency to prove ourselves over and over again, every situation calls for a confirmation of our talents and abilities, and that impacts our sense of self.

In every situation we wonder, will I succeed or fail? Will I look smart or dumb? Will I be accepted or rejected? Will I feel like a winner or loser striving for success and avoiding failure at all, costs helps maintain this idea of who we are. A growth mindset, values learning over, proving it thrives on challenge.

And doesn’t see a failure as evidence of our unintelligence or [01:20:00] lack of ability, but as a springboard for growth and stretching, what is possible in our lives, developing and cultivating a growth. Creates a passion for learning rather than a hunger for approval. Some people recognize this value in challenging themselves and the importance of their effort.

Her research has shown that this stems directly from a growth mindset. The view we adopt for ourselves profoundly affects the way we lead our lives. It can determine whether we become the person we want to be, and whether we accomplish the things we value most, 

[01:20:36] Pamela Sheldon Johns: it is a lot of curiosity too. I know I’m grateful to be a curious person.

And, and I’m also, I don’t know. I just try, maybe I used to be more rigid. 

[01:20:49] Joe Towne: Okay. Can we play a quick game? Okay. The game is just simply, you know, so many of these answers are so thoughtful and these are some of them pretty big questions, but, um, I would love to play [01:21:00] a game of first impressions, more of a lightning round.

Like what’s the first thing that comes to mind with some of the things that I’m about to share. Sure. Okay. So if I was to say this place, I’m wondering the first thing that comes to mind live or no 

[01:21:17] Pamela Sheldon Johns: food seafood. Um, it’s always going to be food with man. Fortunately, someone just called me out the other day for 

[01:21:23] Joe Towne: that.

Well, I know it’s one of your favorite places outside of where you live. So a month Amalfi 

[01:21:30] Pamela Sheldon Johns: lemons. What’s should I try not to do 

[01:21:33] Joe Towne: it’s okay. It’s the first thing that comes to mind. It’s great. 

[01:21:38] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Got so much. Okay. 

[01:21:41] Joe Towne: I’ll do my best via Della Mori via Della Mori broken the forest of Constantino. 

[01:21:49] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I go up to Nevada to the source of the Tiber river and the source of the Arno river.

There’s something magical about that place. 

[01:21:57] Joe Towne: Yeah. Isn’t that? Where both Dante and [01:22:00] St. Francis had some kind of magical experience. 

[01:22:04] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Yeah, they did. 

[01:22:06] Joe Towne: Okay. Um, we talked about it briefly earlier, but particularly Arnaud. 

[01:22:10] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Well, of course it is the whole Jewish element for me because I got to know a woman there very well.

Um, Elena Saturday, whose whose family were hidden in a cave for a very long time by their non-Jewish neighbors and friends. It’s quite a story it’s in the Cushing of over book. Julia child, dear friend. Yeah. I miss her bunches. I loved, you know, cause she lived in Santa Barbara. So we got to spend quite a bit of time together when go to the movies or something go out to eat.

There would always be aligned, forming to talk to her. And she was so gracious. Just lovely. Like, oh your mother used to watch my show. Oh lovely. And what do you like to cook? And she would just [01:23:00] engage people and everybody felt like she never said that to anyone else. And, and I had learned so much from her about that.

She, she was. But she would also talk to her too. I mean, you could get her going on certain people, 

[01:23:15] Joe Towne: but she sounds like when she took that time that she was gracious and kind of, she, 

[01:23:19] Pamela Sheldon Johns: she was, was she, you know, she came to my cooking school and I was working within county at the time. It was in 96, I think.

And, uh, she really, John Joe, she didn’t like Italian food, French food all the way, but, you know, she would, after that, she was known to say in several places, that’s the best food I’ve ever had in Italy. And the sheriff was working with us at the time was Sarah Jenkins. And she, you might know her from New York, from port kit, uh, and, uh, And also her, what was her restaurant and blanking right [01:24:00] now, the poor Cena.

And then now she’s in Maine doing wonderful food in Maine 9th of June. It’s called. And so she cooked the dinner that night. I’ll tell you what it was a rabbit braised in white wine roasted potatoes. And Julia loved it. And I cooked for Juliet my house. One time, I thought I’m going to have to make something that, you know, I have to make something Italian, but what would she like?

And I made, uh, also Buco that had just been simmering for a really long time, you know? And I had this old in Santa Barbara. I had this old O’Keeffe and merits stove. One of those and just was perfect for simmering big pots like that. She came in about 10 times and stuck her finger in it

[01:24:49] Joe Towne: born Julia, Carolyn McWilliams, Julia child went on to be an American cooking teacher, author and television personality. She’s mostly [01:25:00] recognized for bringing French cuisine to the American public with her debut cookbook, mastering the art of French cooking and her subsequent television programs. The most notable of which was the French.

Which premiered in 1963, following her graduation from college child moved to New York city where she worked as a copywriter for the advertising department of WNJ Sloan. She then joined the office of strategic services OSS in 1942. After finding out she was too tall to enlist in the women’s army Corps.

She was soon given a position as a top secret researcher for the head of OSTP. When child was asked to solve the problem of too many OSS underwater explosives being set off by curious sharks child’s solution was to experiment with cooking various concoctions as a shark repellent. They were sprinkled in the water near the explosives and repelled sharks still in use today.

The experimental shark repellent, mark child’s first foray into the world of cooking. [01:26:00] While in Sri Lanka, she met Paul Cushing child who also worked for the OSS and who had lived in Paris as an artist and a poet in 1948. The couple moved to Paris after the state department assigned Paul. Child repeatedly recalled her first meal and ruin as a culinary revelation.

She described one of her meals to the New York times as an opening up of the soul and spirit for me in 1951, she graduated from the famous codeine blue cooking school in Paris and later studied privately with max boneyard and other master chefs. Even after a book deal with a publisher, her book was initially rejected for seeming too much like an encyclopedia.

Finally, when it was published, the 726 page book became a best seller and was lauded for its helpful illustrations and precise attention to detail her show, the French chef added stay BW on February. 1963 on [01:27:00] WGBH and was immediately successful because of the technology in the 1960s, the show was unedited causing her blunders to appear in the final version and ultimately lend authenticity and approachability to television.

The show ran nationally for 10 years and won Peabody and Emmy awards, including the first Emmy award for an educational. How about Rolando? 

[01:27:27] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Rolando was my first partner in the whole culinary workshop world. And he’s the one that brought me in and we were working at and we brought students over and actually mark came over on one of those trips with his then wife, Nancy Silverton, and, uh, all of the big name chefs from the, that time, because Rolando also is still an importer of Italian artismal foods.

Manica is the name of the company. And so we were bringing over [01:28:00] chefs to introduce them to the, then where these ingredients came from. And we took them to all of the sources and, and then, you know, they would bring their products back and cook them. Judy Rogers was one that I just really loved to Zuni cafe in San Francisco.

Yeah. 

[01:28:20] Joe Towne: Pamela. The Olympics here. Well, here, I’m not in the states at the moment, but I would say football season is upon us. I’m curious to know what comes to mind when you hear Bravio Della bowtie. 

[01:28:36] Pamela Sheldon Johns: It’s the Olympics of multiple channel. 

[01:28:39] Joe Towne: Yeah. Which is what, 

[01:28:41] Pamela Sheldon Johns: what is it? Well, two guys from. Six or eight neighborhoods and two guys push for each neighborhood, a wine barrel up the very high Hilltown and the curving streets and all around.

And, and it’s a race that most towns actually [01:29:00] have something like this. Most people have heard of the polio and Sienna with the horses racing in the combo. Um, but, uh, all the little towns around have, you know, like there’s one that has donkeys, that pool little carts, um, in PISA, they have the different neighborhoods, all get on a bridge and see who can push the last guy off.

Um, in Montalcino it’s an archery contest. So he’s all go back to very ancient medieval times. When people would, you know, probably it was like a live chess game or maybe the football game that we enjoy now. 

[01:29:36] Joe Towne: And what happens 

[01:29:37] Pamela Sheldon Johns: if you win in the case of the Bravio it’s, uh, there’s every year, a new banner that’s painted by, uh, an artist that’s selected to do that.

And it’s a big honor, our country to one this year for the first time ever. 

[01:29:53] Joe Towne: Oh my goodness. Congrats. I have a few quotes. I’m wondering if you can help me understand [01:30:00] nature is my church. I say that. Yes, you do. So can you say something about what that means? Oh, I thought 

[01:30:09] Pamela Sheldon Johns: maybe someone else had said it.

Maybe someone else has, you know, Henry David Thoreau or someone like that, but. Um, I guess, you know, when people, people go to church too, most of the time, maybe I can’t really speak for other people, but I’m imagining that they go to church to pray and to, you know, calm themselves and, and make the world level somewhat again, or try to, and nature does that for me.

I, I just, and I need it. I need it. And that’s why, um, sometimes I just have to go to the seaside, not because I need to swim in it or, uh, I just, I need to see it. I need to smell it and I like to touch it, [01:31:00] but it is so calming for me. And it’s like, Something I’ve been missing a mountains. I was just up in, um, in the APA nines.

And I just noticed that the minute I hit the level of the Chestnut trees, I start to calm down. I start to feel better 

[01:31:21] Joe Towne: and relate to that. Yeah. Okay. How about this one? Corporal PNO. Annie mark on Salata. Yeah. 

[01:31:29] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Well, if you’re hungry, you’re not going to be very consulated or you will literally means body full.

And I I’m interpreting that as a full tummy, satisfied that your spirit is calm. And consoled 

[01:31:48] Joe Towne: a good fit for those, for those of us who get hangry. That’s definitely true. But I certainly, if we have really nourishing food, it’s a, a different level. Oh yeah. I mean, when [01:32:00] I’ve been in busy periods where I forget to eat, uh, my blood sugar drops, um, I definitely get irritable.

Um, but that’s just poor planning on my part. 

[01:32:09] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Well, in my husband’s case, he gets quiet and he’s never quiet. So when he does get quiet, I’m thinking he’s either hungry or sick feeling. I feel okay. I’m like, are you hungry? Yes, always though. 

[01:32:27] Joe Towne: Okay. How about take joy in small pleasures and eat 

[01:32:29] Pamela Sheldon Johns: well, take joy in small pleasures and eat well.

Well, that sounds to me who said that 

[01:32:36] Joe Towne: I, I wonder if you did as well, but I, it sounds like something that you would, it does sound like 

[01:32:41] Pamela Sheldon Johns: something I would say, because I think of all of our senses and we can, we can get so much, uh, about from our eyes and, and from, from our smelling and our taste and touching, um, [01:33:00] then when we eat, I don’t know, there’s something about picking up food with your hands and eating it too.

If you put all these little pleasures together, it just creates a whole package that you have to be mindful though. Right? 

[01:33:14] Joe Towne: You do. And you can’t just Wolf it. Yeah. 

[01:33:18] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Is that if you’re really hungry, it even the who’s you to slow down a second. 

[01:33:22] Joe Towne: But that’s the take joy part. I think, you know, it’s not, it’s not scarf down small pleasures.

Um, yeah, I think, I think you’re right. I need to go slower in order to absorb what I’m taking in. Um, Pamela, what is your desert island food? 

[01:33:36] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Oh yeah, probably cheese. 

[01:33:40] Joe Towne: Is it 

[01:33:40] Pamela Sheldon Johns: pecorino? Well, yeah. And I w you know, happy with a lot of cheeses. Cheddar would be fine too, but it would be especially nice if I had some wine to go with it.

[01:33:51] Joe Towne: Absolutely. No, not at all. I like this island. Um, what is Rakolta? [01:34:00] 

[01:34:01] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Yeah, it’s the olive harvest. 

[01:34:04] Joe Towne: So that sort of thing that happens in 

[01:34:05] Pamela Sheldon Johns: October, whereas they’ve been damn yet is the great part of this. 

[01:34:10] Joe Towne: Is that similar time of year or is it a month off? A little earlier, 

[01:34:16] Pamela Sheldon Johns: early. So whites are going to be picked towards the end of September, depending on the weather.

We’ve had a really hot year. It might be sooner. Um, and then reds usually start around the first week 

[01:34:25] Joe Towne: of October. Okay. So this, um, next word, 

[01:34:31] Pamela Sheldon Johns: um, basically has literally a pinch or a sting, like a bee will give you a pizza Coco or, but most of the time we were talking about something spicy, like red chili flakes, for 

[01:34:45] Joe Towne: example, red chili flakes.

And when, when you experienced that with olive oil, it means it’s very young. Right. And very sort of fresh, 

[01:34:53] Pamela Sheldon Johns: well fresh. Yeah. Just press because it’s most potent, you know, it’s, it’s something that you [01:35:00] kind of burns your throat as it goes down, which sounds so weird to somebody who’s never had that experience, but once you have you get addicted to it, And it’s where, where you sense that there’s a lot of polyphenols in the oil because they come out in this green spicy, um, burn that you know, that you 

[01:35:19] Joe Towne: experience.

And that’s a little medicinal too. It’s really good for our bodies, right? To experience a little bit of that. It’s 

[01:35:27] Pamela Sheldon Johns: an antioxidant and, uh, just good, good. All around healthy stuff. 

[01:35:32] Joe Towne: Okay. Who said this next quote, mom, mom, I know what’s important. Life eating good food being kind and breathing. My baby said that she’s very wise, 

[01:35:46] Pamela Sheldon Johns: which was, that was so that was so cool 

[01:35:51] Joe Towne: while she was paying attention.

[01:35:54] Pamela Sheldon Johns: Yeah. You hope your kids are going to hear you. And, and that was a good [01:36:00] sign. Now she’s 24. She doesn’t say that kind of stuff anymore. 

[01:36:05] Joe Towne: Well, she’s into fashion now. Yeah, she’s got other focuses. Um, I’ve just got a couple more here and then I want to let you go, but I’m curious to know, Pamela, what can you not stop watching?

What can I not? Is there anything in your life that you can’t stop 

[01:36:21] Pamela Sheldon Johns: watching now? You mean all the time or right now or not? Right now? It’s my little baby chicks. I can’t stop. I put a chair in the chicken coop so I can watch them. 

[01:36:35] Joe Towne: Well, Pamela, the theme of this podcast is better. And I want to challenge you now for a moment with a question, which is, I’m curious to know what is something that you do better than most people?

[01:36:51] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I don’t think I’m so special. What do I do better? 

[01:36:56] Joe Towne: What might you do better than most people? 

[01:36:58] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I’m the best mother [01:37:00] my child could have. And I do that better than anyone else could do. That for sure. I’m I suppose all my cats and dogs would agree with that too. And probably Johnny. Yeah. Maybe I’m better because I’m really good cook, but I, you know, there’s all kinds of people that are as good or better than me.

I wouldn’t say that I’m better at any particular thing. Um, I don’t know. I just want to always 

[01:37:34] Joe Towne: be better. Okay. So in the spirit of that, what is something that you are working to get better at? I 

[01:37:41] Pamela Sheldon Johns: think that, um, I ha I’ve had a lot of goals to that direction and have gotten through a few of them. I think I need to be more patient.

Um, I need to be better at that because I, I do, I do get a little impatient sometimes [01:38:00] when. I wouldn’t have to repeat something that I’ve done and do it again, but I, I don’t hold that too hard on myself, but I would like to be more paid. 

[01:38:12] Joe Towne: Yeah. I think that’s a really beautiful intention and I liked that you are holding it gently.

Yeah. So we’re going to put all of it in the show notes, but I’m curious, how can we explore Italy with you? What is something upcoming that you’re excited about? I know that things are in flux. I know that things have opened and then maybe closed back down and, um, there’s some unknowns, but how can people come and explore Italy with you?

[01:38:40] Pamela Sheldon Johns: I would love to just start with having people come to my farm and bed and breakfast cooking school and, you know, just, just to relax because most people walk into the garden and breathe deeply. The life outside the, the [01:39:00] garden gate is chaotic. There’s, there’s so much going on and you can leave behind when you come inside.

And I liked that and I do, I do do the trips. I’m think that I’m not going to do as many as I was because being home as much as I have been, has been quite nice and, you know, things evolve also in ways that it’s probably better for me to, to just be home more too. I’m very happy to be there, but I do, I do have, the problem is I have had to cancel several workshops in other regions and rebook them and cancel them again and rebook them.

And now we have, we have something in October where I take people. I probably, this might be the last time I do it. I don’t know. But, um, we, I rent vintage car. And my, my guests drive them and we drive them to, you know, food venues. Okay. So we’re, this is going to be an . [01:40:00] So we’re going to visit a balsamic vinegar producer.

We’re going to go see the primary piano cheese with, you know, we’re going to see this wonderful, uh, little company that makes gin and other lecturers out of herbs that they gather, uh, just, you know, every day is a different experience. And, um, so I’m hoping that happens. We’re acting as if it’s going to happen.

[01:40:22] Joe Towne: Pamela, I just I’m. I’m so deeply appreciative that you have come into my life. Um, I’m so grateful to know you. I really appreciate your time and your heart and, uh, Just the, the beautiful human that you are. Uh, I want to say Godsy, Malay and Civi. I’m a Presto. Okay. 

[01:40:46] Pamela Sheldon Johns: And may I just say you’ve, you’ve been a real plus for me too, and I I’ve loved getting to know you.

I love when you walked into my kitchen, you said, oh, that mirror over your stove is great thing. Should we? And I’m like, [01:41:00] oh, good for me. You know? And, but just your sweet spirit and your calmness and your inclusivity of people when we have traveled together. And I’ve seen you with people, you’re just a beautiful person.

I feel lucky to know you. 

[01:41:20] Joe Towne: Thank you, Pamela. Thank you for taking so much time. Thank you for this wonderful visit. Thank you. Bye.

Okay, I’m officially hungry. Now. I wish I could be transported directly to Pamela’s kitchen. I want to go there, eat a big meal together and then step outside into her garden and take a deep breath. She’s right. The world outside is chaotic breaking bread with the people we love is part of what makes life so interesting for me.

Anyway, God, my heart aches thinking [01:42:00] about what this pandemic has taken from Pamela, from her family and her colleagues across Italy and knowing how climate change is touching every part of the planet. We’re all connected on it’s collective. I hear how resilient Italians have been and how generally optimistic they are about the future.

And that renews my hope. What also stands out is how curiosity can be a superpower and being kind caring for others, the simplicity and the power of that. All right, you’re not going to want to miss our guests next week. NOA Kageyama Noah is a performance psychologist. Who’s on the faculty of the Julliard school in New York city and the new world symphony in Miami.

His journey as a performer began at two years old, his bouts with performance anxiety started when he was around five and lasted into his twenties. It was at Julliard where he met a sports [01:43:00] psychologist who changed everything. He has a master’s degree from Julliard, as well as his MSN PhD in counseling and counseling psychology from Indiana.

He has taught workshops on performance enhancement and overcoming performance anxiety everywhere from Northwestern university and the new England conservatory to NYU and the national orchestral Institute. He’s created a remarkably successful performance psychology blog, the Bulletproof musician with hundreds of thousands of monthly readers.

I’m so excited to share his insights with you all next week here on the better podcast. Thank you for spreading the word about this podcast and helping it to grow. Thank you for your kind notes and reviews, and also for tuning in and going on this journey with us. When you do these things, it matters. It matters so much in the big picture about the future of the better.

But it also matters a great deal to me. [01:44:00] So thank you. I’m so grateful for you being part of this community. Thank you for the gifts of your time and your attention until next week. Be well.