[00:00:00] Joe Towne: Hey there I’m Joe Towne, and this is The Better Podcast.

My guest this week is Liza Katzer. She’s an executive and Emmy award-winning executive producer for Doozer Productions, which is based at Warner Brothers. She has been at the company for over a decade now, and through the years, she has helped to develop and produce Life Sentence, Whiskey Cavalier, and more recently, Ted Lasso.

After attending Northwestern University, Liza worked at both Management 360 and the United Talent Agency UTA before leaving the fast-paced environments for producing movies at Disney. Her department made Prince of Persia and Alison Wonderland amongst others. Eventually, she found her way into making comedic television shows with Bill Lawrence and Jeff Ingold.

They now have headed [00:01:00] the class on HBO max season three of Ted Lasso and more shows with Vince Vaughn and Jason Segal on their way. The Hollywood Reporter just named Liza one of the top 35 executives under 35 in our industry. She is a passionate, talented and curious human. 

Now I have to say we did it again. We swore in this episode, not a ton, but we did so keep that. Now let’s jump right into this conversation with Liza Katzer on learning to trust your voice. 

I want you to imagine for a moment that you are a country, an independent country walking around, and that people are following you around and they’re writing about your life.

So if you Liz, uh, you know, had a newspaper that was written about your life, what would the current headlines say? 

[00:01:50] Liza Katzer: I think it would be something like she finally learned to trust herself. 

[00:01:55] Joe Towne: So, first of all, I love this newspaper. I’m subscribing. I want to know [00:02:00] more, like if I double click this article, does it teach me how, like, how does one learn to trust oneself?

[00:02:05] Liza Katzer: I’m in a moment right now that is, it feels very magnetic and, um, there’s so many positive things happening. Do you know, just in the past. Few months even I got married and not that awards matter, but just as a symbol, like won an Emmy for my work as a producer on Ted lasso, that’s a really big deal.

They’re both, I know they’re really big deals. My poor husband had about two weeks in the spotlight and then all of a sudden the Emmy awards came along, but both very, very big deals. And then very recently was named to be one of the like 35 under 35, although I am 35. So it’s a little misleading, but, um, and I feel like up until very recently, I had a long period from like teens through twenties to early thirties of just [00:03:00] really struggling and having a lot of, um, insecurity self-doubt.

And part of the like finally learned is that I’ve always considered myself a late bloomer and things are just in this moment really feeling like they’re starting to click and settle in and I’m able to look back and see how certain decisions to do something or not do something or to follow, you know, what ended up being my own intuition over popular advice, brought me to a certain place that’s so much.

[00:03:37] Joe Towne: And I love the idea that, um, some things worth creating. Take awhile and an arrow where we download things and have things dropped off at our door in an hour. Some things take awhile. And what I really appreciate is the idea of honoring instinct over what maybe other people are saying. And it [00:04:00] feels like you’re being validated for that perhaps on both the personal and the professional.

There’s a phrase that came to mind as you were talking about this, which is, I think it’s sometimes a quote attributed to Tony Robbins. Although I think there’s another person that it’s attributed to, but it’s, it’s, we get rewarded in public for the things we do in private, the things we practice, you know, it really feels like you are being rewarded and blessed rightfully so for a lot of patience and diligence and hard work and intention and heart, and it feels like connected to the idea of honoring your instincts, which got them getting like goose pimples, thinking about that.

[00:04:41] Liza Katzer: That is so beautiful. And I can’t believe I haven’t heard that, but it really does feel that way because these are all things that I think I wanted much earlier and felt so much frustration, just like confusion about how and why, and what to do to make these things [00:05:00] happen. And I think it really is. So much internal work on so much on so many different levels that kind of now for the first time, and then along the way of doing that work, you kind of lose sight of like what the external part is, because it doesn’t even matter and that doesn’t even become the goal anymore.

But then now I almost feel surprised at the external piece of it. It’s so special to talk to you about this, because I feel like you also saw a snapshot of me in a moment of a lot of struggle. 

[00:05:34] Joe Towne: I remember some of our earliest conversations were about longing for some of these pieces to be maybe at a different place of alignment or, you know, just wanting to call it in.

And, um, yeah, it’s really special to be able to celebrate this. And you, you mentioned that some of these dreams and visions started early, I’m curious. Do you recall your first big dream? I 

[00:05:59] Liza Katzer: think [00:06:00] I lived in like so much fear of making a mistake. And from an early age, I was such a perfectionist that I almost, and this is going to sound a little bit sad, but I almost don’t think I allowed myself to really like dream big because the idea of like striving for something and not achieving it was like so terrifying that I didn’t even want to think big scale.

So I don’t have these memories. I think at a very early age, I wanted to be. Uh, ballerina or an actress. And I actually, you know, grew up doing plays and musical theater and actually went to school as a theater major, but switched to TV film immediately because I was very practical and I was like, there’s too much of a question, mark.

I never want to be in a position where like, my destiny is like, not in my control, so I will go to TV, film. I will be a producer, but I’ll stay in this acting [00:07:00] class and have fun cause I enjoy doing it. So I don’t think, I think only very recently. And it’s part of my like late bloomer headline of, um, only recently did I start to really like allow myself to have these dreams or to really tap into what they are.

And I think at this point I’m still figuring them out, but one of the things, and it’s been so amazing with a show like Ted lasso to be a part of that, because seeing what happens when you put something out that actually can change the way people think and have impact is so powerful. And it’s definitely not something that I thought about when we were making it, because with any show you’re just trying to, you know, get from one point to the next and have it survive along the way.

So there’s never really these like big visions of like. Making a show about kindness that encourages male vulnerability in a sports setting. Like only [00:08:00] once it was happening. And once we saw that people were absorbing it, did that make like the light bulbs go off of, oh, what other big ideas do I want to influence?

[00:08:12] Joe Towne: I love that. I love that there is a process there, and I love that idea just trying to keep the show alive, but that you almost discovered what it was saying, how the impact it might have, and this idea of a show about kindness and male vulnerability in the sports world, something maybe in the water when you were growing up.

So palace Verdi’s Spanish phrase that roughly greens stocks, or Greenwoods, maybe there’s something in the Greenwood that teed up perfectionism. And the idea is like I’m hearing a thread of that, that perfectionistic idea, the fear of making a mistake contributes to an idea of like a fear of success or failure.

Perfectionism is often defined as the need to be or appear to be perfect, or even to [00:09:00] believe that it’s possible to achieve perfection. It’s typically viewed as a positive trait rather than a flaw. People may use the term healthy perfectionism to describe or justify perfectionistic behavior.

Perfectionist actually tend to achieve less and stress more than regular high achievers. They both set high goals for themselves. But if you’re a high achiever, you might be satisfied with excellence. Even if there were mistakes or failures along the way, if you’re a perfectionist, you will accept nothing less than perfection.

High achievers appreciate their accomplishments, which can lead to being supportive of others. Perfectionists are overly critical. They get weighed down by the mistakes they find and they can’t let them go. High achievers tend to be pulled towards their goals and by a desire to achieve them, they’re happy with any steps made in the right direction.

This is excellence [00:10:00] perfectionist. On the other hand, tend to be pushed toward their goals by a fear of not reaching them. Perfectionist, sometimes set unreasonable out of reach goals for themselves. High achievers can still set high goals for themselves, perhaps even having fun of going past their goals.

Once they’re reached as a result, high achievers tend to be happier and more successful than perfectionists in the pursuit of their goals. High achievers can enjoy the process of chasing a goal as much or more than the actual reaching of the goal itself. Perfectionists are so concerned about outcomes and avoiding failure that they can’t enjoy.

The process of growing while high achievers are able to bounce back fairly easily from disappointment. Perfectionists tend to beat themselves up much more and wallow in negative feelings. If they fall. Perfectionists tend to procrastinate more because failure meaning missing the mark is scary. This can lead to paralysis.

It [00:11:00] can be harder for perfectionist to take any criticism. Even the constructive kind. They also suffer from lower self-esteem. They end up being rigid and defensive and can lose social connection in the process. So if all of these things are true of perfection seeking, why do it in part, because it means that we care and we may not know any better that there’s an alternative.

And lastly, perfectionism can be motivating at first it can drive us. And we can fear that if we ease up on what’s motivating us to succeed, that we won’t be successful. I like to think of perfection as being like a rocket booster that can help us break through orbit as we try to get to space, but it will never help us land on the moon.

Striving for excellence is rooted in the urge for success. Excellence is about doing things better than they were done before. It’s about persistence [00:12:00] and the commitment to do things exceptionally well. Excellence requires risk. It requires giving it our best effort. It requires us to be mindful of our comfort zone and to seek our edge of growth and capability excellence allows for spontaneity.

And asks us to be more of ourselves in the process, on our quest to maximize our potential. We have to ask whether it’s worth it. So what do you think? Is it worth it? Like if I can’t have it perfect. And maybe I don’t even try. What I am hearing is you are a storyteller, you were standing on floorboards and acting and it led you on a journey.

So you went to Northwestern, a great school, and then you spent some time at the university of Edinburgh. Both cities have incredible culture, both redonkulous like cold winters. Um, what, what were you seeking from those two experiences? Like at 

[00:12:57] Liza Katzer: Northwestern, you were only allowed [00:13:00] to study abroad in a country that you had taken the language of.

So I was not great at Spanish, although I did take four years of Spanish in high school. So. Did not want to continue that. And again, fear of failure. I wasn’t great at it, so I didn’t want to do it. So I didn’t take a language. And so my options were London or Scotland, and I wanted the experience of like a small school.

Like I want it to be absorbed into the culture of where I went and London felt a little too big. So really it was just kind of by default. I didn’t realize at the time, until after I committed that the Edinburgh fringe festival took place. And unfortunately, when I studied there, I arrived right afterwards, but it all came full circle, not this past summer during the pandemic, but the summer before I actually got to go back as a producer scouting talent at the fringe festival in Edinburgh.

[00:13:55] Joe Towne: If you’ve been listening to the show, you’ve heard this festival mentioned in passing, [00:14:00] but the Edinburgh fringe festival is the single greatest celebration of arts and culture on the planet. For three weeks in August, the city of Edinburgh welcomes an explosion of creative energy from around the globe, the population of the city doubles artists and performers take to hundreds of stages all over the city to put on their shows.

There are big names and unknown artists, theater, comedy, physical theater, circus spoken word, you name it. The fringe started in 1940. There was this international festival going on and eight theater groups just showed up and put on their productions outside of the regular programming. There formed a symbiotic relationship between independent production and Mainstage events that have lasted to this day in 2018.

The [00:15:00] festival spans 25 days and featured more than 55,000 performers of thirty five hundred and forty eight different shows in 317 venues. The Edinburgh fringe festival is surpassed only by the Olympics and the FIFA world cup. In terms of global ticketed events in the comedy space, it has helped establish the careers of many writers and performers, including Dudley Moore and Peter Cook, who performed in beyond the fringe with Alan Bennett and Jonathan Miller at the Royal Lyceum.

Various members of money Python have performed at the fringe, Stephen Fry, Hugh Laurie, and Emma Thompson, all with Cambridge Footlights, Rowan Atkinson, Eddie Izzard reduced Shakespeare company flight of the Conchords and plays. Tom Stoppard’s play Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead. Was first performed in its full version at the 1966 fringe.[00:16:00] 

Phoebe Waller-Bridge performed Fleabag there in 2013 before becoming one of my favorite shows ever. Hannah Gadsby’s show Nanette won the 2017 Edinburgh comedy award before developing a worldwide audience on Netflix. The festival is a huge deal. After developing this play at USC, we performed the original star wars trilogy onstage in 30 minutes after developing the play at USC from 1996, until 2005, for thousands of people at fringe, it captured the heart and soul of George Lucas who flew us up to perform at Skywalker ranch and ILM.

This led them to invite us to star wars conventions, where we performed back to back to back shows before it ended up going to Comicon and ended up at the Coronet theater for a run in Los Angeles. Now it may not be a household show, but for the better part of a decade, [00:17:00] it was a substantial part of our lives.

And it wouldn’t have happened without that experience at the fringe. But 

[00:17:07] Liza Katzer: really I just went to like have an experience and to deliver abroad and just take advantage of that. But my, my drive to Northwestern was I knew I wanted to go to a school that had. Communication studies of some sort, because I, you know, I loved theater and I loved acting, but just never, never thought to pursue it as a career, but wanted to be a part of it.

And I think growing up in palace Verde, which is, you know, 45 minutes south of LA, but couldn’t be more of a world away. It’s, you know, nobody’s parents worked in the industry. Like it was a very different kind of culture. They’re very like beach surfers, um, typical Southern California, more similar to orange county than LA I would say, but I was close enough to Los Angeles to know that an industry existed.

And to know that there were people called producers, or [00:18:00] you could work at a studio or a network. I didn’t know what that meant, but I knew I wanted to do it. And I also felt very fish out of water growing up in palace Verdi’s because there isn’t a ton of like arts culture and it’s a bit, a little homogenous and, um, a bit conservative.

I felt like I didn’t quite fit into the culture there and wanted to, in my mind go to like the east coast. I ended up in the Midwest, but it’s halfway 

[00:18:35] Joe Towne: there. So first of all, uh, the producer in me, so listen, honor’s the producer in you? I love fish out of water. That’s going to come. I think in our conversation a little bit later, what that phrase means.

I love the idea that, um, we have two things maybe in common that we maybe we didn’t know. My first choice for university was Northwestern. I visited the older brother of one of my classmates in high school, in New York. Uh, and I went out and it was one of the [00:19:00] only colleges I think I visited on my own, bought a Northwestern hat at the store in Evanston.

I wore it for about 10 years. It fell apart. The transcript that my school sent was under my birth name, Ariel and not under Joe, which I had been using since the age of five, all the way through school, all the way through high school. So I’ll never know if I would’ve gotten into Northwestern, but it was a first choice.

First, a dream vision I had, and this may not have happened if I had gone in Northwestern. But, um, at USC, my professor had been leading groups over to the Edinburgh fringe festival for 30 something years. Um, the myth and the lore is that he was the first ever international group to be brought in 1966. I went with him four seasons and the place I’ve lived the most outside of New York and LA it’s the place.

So here you get to go to this small city that is on the one side, a castle up on a hill with history. [00:20:00] And the other side you have like all these storefronts and ultimate modernization and probably like a McDonald’s and all kinds of other boots and things like that. Right. So you have that experience and, you know, I really, I can see from, uh, our conversations, how much you love travel.

Just if you are sort of a fan of yours on the socials, you might see Taloon or Chile. And I’m wondering like how important is travel to you? Does the travel give you a different perspective about humanity? And if so, like what have you noticed? 

[00:20:32] Liza Katzer: I really love travel. And actually this is so funny because I’m about to go to Morocco on Thursday, which I am a little bit anxious about it as my first, like, I guess, I don’t know if you can say post pandemic, but post three vaccination shot trip.

I’m really excited about it’s a place I wanted to go for a very long time. And I think travel is so important to me. There’s a real like seeker inside of [00:21:00] me. And sometimes it’s a really positive thing because I want to like know more and learn more and meet more people and like really squeeze like every last drop life and everything that, you know, it has to offer.

And then on the other hand, I think sometimes I’m, I’m seeking for something. Um, that’s outside of what, what I have and what is in my present. And I’ve really learned recently to like, be at peace in the present and still. Like in, for the travel and enjoy the travel, but not be so focused on that as like a means of like escape or just, um, you know, this like endless.

I’m 

[00:21:45] Joe Towne: wondering, you know, like the idea of what you described growing up in palace various was like, you were seeking a different experience. And I wonder if we track this through line eventually, if it’s like, Hey, I might notice what I’m seeing on TV and film, and maybe I want to see [00:22:00] something different than what I’m seeing.

So I think it’s all connected to part of your skillset and part of what you’re interested in. And I love that you’re a secret.

What does it mean to be a seeker? According to the dictionary, a seeker is a person who tries to find something by searching for it. We’ve heard that if we seek that, we will find in Palo Cuellos book, the Alchemist, the protagonist Santiago is a dreamer and a seeker, and he stands for the dreamer and seeker in all of us.

Luke Skywalker in star wars, Dorothy, in the wizard of Oz Hilma, Klint the Swedish artist and mystic. What is the secret archetype? The secret archetype is one of searching, searching for a place in the world and identity a sense of belonging or something better. The secret archetype will either be the person [00:23:00] who sets out on a journey of discovery or the one who encourages others to do.

So. If you identify with the secret archetype, you might’ve had an idea. Perhaps you feel you got hit over the head with something, and now you see the world in a completely different way. This awakening can be a physical illness or a traumatic experience, but it could also be as small as stumbling across a book or idea that sparked something inside of you that you can’t stop thinking about.

According to Carolyn mace, the seeker archetype is on a lifelong journey in pursuit of wisdom, knowledge, and truth, because it is what their soul requires. The seeker archetype also refers to one who searches on a path that may begin with earthly curiosity. The seeker is in search of wisdom and truth, wherever it is to be found.

So do you consider yourself to be a seeker? [00:24:00] If so, what are you seeking? This might be a question you’ve spent some time thinking about, or it might be something that comes off the cuff, but why is it, do you have a philosophy, like, do you have a personal word or phrase that you keep coming back to perhaps that influences or guides your life in some 

[00:24:18] Liza Katzer: way?

Okay. The first thing I’m just going to go with the first thing that popped in to my mind and not try to like find the perfect phrase. Um, it is surrender and I think that I’ve spent so much of my life up until a certain point of like really trying to be in control and plan everything and optimize that I more recently have been trying to surrender to what is, and to what is not to get too woo, woo.

But like the will of the universe and just to what my present moment is, and to just kind of be in flow with what’s around me, as opposed to grasping life, like by [00:25:00] the neck and trying to like steer it the way I want it to go. 

[00:25:03] Joe Towne: I don’t know if surrender was part of your time early days when you’re in the industry, you spent some time at both management, 360 and then at UTA, sometimes I think we don’t know what we’re being prepared for.

You spent time learning about the industry through the lens of both manager and agent. And I’m curious, what did you learn then? That’s helping you with your job now? Oh, 

[00:25:25] Liza Katzer: so yeah, those were very difficult experiences for me. And, um, I was recently asked, like, what, what bit of advice would you give, like a younger person starting out, you know, in a similar, similar type of role that you started out?

And I said like, you don’t actually have to have a thick skin. It’s okay. To be sensitive and to show weakness. And I think, um, at the time when I was kind of doing those, those jobs and, you know, you’re told, and you still are told that the best way to break into the industry, [00:26:00] um, you know, for the, these, like behind the camera jobs is to start an agency because you really learn.

The business inside and out. And, you know, I had seen entourage and I knew what Lloyd’s life was like. And I was like, I don’t think I’m cut out for that. I really don’t want to do that. And so I aggressively tried to avoid the agency. And so one of my friends who was a year older, who was actually working at William Morris agency at the time, uh, got me an interview for a desk at management 360.

And in my mind I thought, well, it’s a management company. So this guy, you know, the manager that I was interviewing with, he does TV and film and comedy and drama. And he also produces some of his client’s work. And I thought I wanted to produce not really knowing what that meant, but so I ended up taking that job.

And the positive was that you still got that sort of global perspective of the business. So I thought I was really like getting away [00:27:00] with something here. Well, I started that job and about two weeks later, the manager that I was working for said, so I’m leaving management 360, I’m going to become an agent at UTA and you’re coming with me.

And I was like, okay, well I had a plan and the universe clearly had a bigger plan for me. So here we go. Yeah. So that was like a stressful, um, you know, uh, Just kind of like experience going through that with him. He was a first time agent. I was coming over as a new assistant. I hadn’t been through the mail room or the trainee program.

I didn’t know anyone. I had no idea how to be a good assistant. Um, I didn’t know what rolling calls were yet. Uh, so that was, that was really tough. It was really tough. And it really was the environment that I sort of feared. That was just my personal experience. I know a lot of other people maybe don’t have that, but it was incredibly intense and stressful.

And I did not love it. Like I did not love it. I did [00:28:00] not feel like it was a fit. And I actually felt like I might not want to stay in the business just based on the people I was meeting and the type of energies that I was in. And yeah, it was hard. 

[00:28:11] Joe Towne: That’s really great. Cause you know, I know that if that’s a piece of advice that a lot of people give here’s a counterpoint to it.

Like not everyone. I love the idea of, we don’t necessarily need a tough skin and I think that probably comes into play later, but I also love the idea that you, you went with an intention, right? Like I want to gather this global perspective while also being able to pursue this word producing, which I’ve heard so much about, but I don’t really know what it is yet.

And so you go and then, you know, you’re there for a short period of time and it’s like, we’re going over here. I didn’t want that. Okay. I’m going to flow with it. So you go and you have a limited experience of what it’s actually like, other than watching it on TV. But when you get there, it’s hard and it’s uncomfortable and it’s chronically stressful and you realize it’s not for you.

And so here we go with like your instincts, like, this is not for me. So [00:29:00] how do you make the jump from there to going to Disney 

[00:29:03] Liza Katzer: was really stressful and like to go a level deeper. Like I was really just struggling personally, too. Like I remember there was like a period of a couple of months over Halloween where like I would work, you know, a 12 hour day and then end the night in another one of the other agents had like a giant Halloween basket.

And just every night for like three months, my dinner was Halloween candy. And like, I was very unhealthy. I was so stressed. Um, and I will, one more thing to add is that that was also a time before social media and before I phones and people weren’t really, you know, I think, and beef obviously before me too, and time’s up and all these things.

So I think it was a very different environment. I hope it was a very different environment than it is now.

[00:29:52] Joe Towne: Uh, groundbreaking anti-sexual assault movement and a women’s empowerment movement that had critical mass in [00:30:00] 2017 time magazine called them a worldwide phenomenon and a culture shift hashtag me too, before Harvey Weinstein dominated the national headlines with his allegations of sexual assault than harassing.

The me too movement existed before October 15th, 2017. When Alyssa Milano used those words to tweet out about sexual assault and invited people to join the me too movement where 66,000 people replied in a day, activists to run a Burke, had been spreading her healing message to survivors of trauma.

Terana Burke had done this before. She had the words to console a 13 year old girl who had been abused by her mother’s boyfriend before she had a way to help. She sat with the pain of not knowing how to help others. Yet. A decade later, she founded the nonprofit, just be incorporated an organization that supports victims of sexual [00:31:00] misconduct with a focus on young girls of color.

So when she heard what Alyssa Milano had tweeted and the kind of attention it was getting, and her name was nowhere to be mentioned, she was alarmed. She said she felt a sense of dread because something that was part of her life’s work was going to be co-opted and taken from her and used for a purpose that she hadn’t originally intended.

She was upset because historically the work of women of color have been erased and they have been invisible and she had been hard at work trying to help survivors of sexual. One criticism at this time was that Toronto Burke had not received support over the years from prominent white feminists.

Intersectional theory asserts that people are often disadvantaged by multiple sources of oppression. The heart of the message is this do not expect people who face [00:32:00] different systems of oppression than you to rally for causes you care about. If you do not rally for theirs, we may need to wake up to the ways in which we overlook people around us.

It may be hard and painful to realize the pain that we have inadvertently caused another. So when Alyssa Milana was informed of her and her work, she reached out to Toronto Burke and apologized. And then the following week, she went on good morning, America, where she publicly credited Ms. Burke for her, me too, campaign Toronto went on to say, I think it’s selfish for me to try to frame me too.

As something that I own, it is bigger than me and bigger than Alyssa Milano. Neither of us should be centered in this work. This is about survivors. According to the AP, hashtag me too was shared in more than 12 million posts and reactions in the first 24 hours. Journalists like [00:33:00] Ronan Farrow at the new Yorker and Jodi Kantor at the New York times also helped push the me too.

Conversation forward with dedicated investigative journalism that brought to light numerous sexual misconduct stories enter time’s up in October, 2017. The New York times publishes an expos that solidified swirling rumors about Harvey Weinstein with tangible incriminating proof. The producer allegedly invited a young ingenue to his hotel room and tried to persuade her into massages or showering.

Ashley Judd was one of the first well-known American actresses to come forward. Following the report over 80 women, including Gwyneth Paltrow, Angelina Jolie, and Selma Hayek, all accused Weinstein of sexual harassment and assault. Time’s up promise to push for changes that would protect working women in every industry.

300 [00:34:00] total women in entertainment established a legal defense fund that has since amassed more than $20 million for low income women to secure representation in workplace disputes. We see the impact of these two movements in addressing gender-based discrimination, abuse, and harassment throughout the entertainment industry, disparity in salaries has been made.

Public toxicity in the workplace is being highlighted in, rooted out. These ripples have become waves. And what is being sought is a more just industry and a more just world. 

[00:34:36] Liza Katzer: I definitely saw a lot of, you know, just inappropriate behavior that I don’t think would fly anymore. So that was, that was part of it as well.

So here’s 

[00:34:44] Joe Towne: what I’m hearing. There is a lesson, right? Like perhaps, and I’m putting words out there that you may not nod your head to, but I’m hearing like, here’s how I don’t want to treat people. And so perhaps sometimes we need to experience the flip side of what we want. Right. In order [00:35:00] to gain clarity or say how I would do it.

That 

[00:35:03] Liza Katzer: was one of those experiences of, I will never go back and I’m so glad it happened. I am so glad it happened. I never want it to happen again. They say to put in a year, I was there a year to the actual day and they say it takes three months to like start interviewing and to get a new job three months to my year-end.

I started interviewing and 

[00:35:23] Joe Towne: strategizer and the producer in you, right? Like, like 

[00:35:26] Liza Katzer: how do I control this? How do I get what I need? And, um, I actually knew I was on, uh, a film, uh, like MP lit desk motion, picture lit desk. And I knew I wanted to do TV and I had an opportunity to go to a TV agent’s desk, but I knew that I just couldn’t be in that environment anymore.

So I was like, I’ll come back around to it. If it’s meant to be like, I just got to get out of here. So I ended up interviewing and getting this job at Disney and like Disney is the happiest place on earth. It seemed like a great place to go. I would be working for [00:36:00] the, um, you know, an executive who was sort of rumored next in line to become the president of the, you know, studio.

So at the time they were making like Alice in Wonderland and like prince of Persia and, um, a bunch of, you know, a bunch of really interesting movies and the girl who I was replacing had just been promoted. So that was a good sign. So I took the job and immediately it was like, I could breathe again. I couldn’t believe that I didn’t have severe anxiety on Sunday nights.

Like I was going home at 7:00 PM. People were nice. The pace was much more suited to me. And I realized like I do not do well with a PA a fast paced environment. And that was something that I had a lot of shame about at the agency. Like there’s so much material and so much coming in and out and so much information and like a never ending to do list without being able to label [00:37:00] it.

I realized that that just didn’t suit my skillset. I want to like dive in like deep dive and really take my time and really go through like thoroughly, like all the layers of a project or a person or whatever it is. So the fact that, you know, the, the workload was a lot, a lot less, but it was much more interesting to me because it was a level beyond just the agency, which is just like in and out, like phone calls and phone calls out material and material out.

Like, so, yeah, so that, that was a really lovely experience. And I met some great people and, um, really, really enjoyed the time there. Um, what happened was, unfortunately, the boss that I was working for did not end up becoming the head of the department. They brought in a different person. And my boss was moved to become the head of Disney international local language film.

So we were making Disney branded [00:38:00] films in emerging markets, which was incredibly interesting. Our department made like China high school musical, and we made, um, we were making movies in India and in Russia and in the middle east. And it was fascinating. And my boss was traveling all the time because he was traveling all the time.

Hopefully he never listened to this, but I had so many hours in the office because it was international time zones we were working on. So I’d get in at like seven and leave at nine and a lot of free time because he was traveling all the time. So actually at that point I started a theater company, was with, uh, some other Northwestern friends, don’t tell Disney, um, and wild onion theater company.

And that was the beginning of my little producer run. Um, my short-lived theater producing run, and that was so creatively fulfilling and it felt [00:39:00] exciting and fun. And like I had some sense of control over what I wanted to do, uh, because even though working at Disney and the international department was so interesting, it, I realized I was quite far from what I wanted to do, which was definitely comedy and definitely TV.

[00:39:17] Joe Towne: What I’m really hearing is. There’s a real sense of self-awareness this idea of like, I want to not go wide. I want to go deep. I like taking my time and really going deep into projects and seeing them through to production. And so you were working in film for a bit, uh, sounds like some great collaborations.

And then when things didn’t go according to plan, right, your boss didn’t get the job that they were maybe thinking that they were going to, you started working on things that were very interesting. Maybe taught you some perspective about international markets, certainly about how to adapt material. And then also you’ve found yourself with free time.

And look, everybody has a side hustle of some kind, even within a [00:40:00] production company. I imagine you could view some of the longterm projects or things you’re developing that aren’t at the script stage or the pitch stage or the production stage as side hustle. And so you started in the theater and you did that, but I’m hearing that you knew you wanted to be in comedy.

And I’m curious, you know, because up until now you were talking about producing, but now, you know, specifically the lane of comedy. So what were you seeking? How did you know you wanted to be in comedy and what were you seeking? 

[00:40:27] Liza Katzer: I guess I was always told that I was like kind of funny growing up, like the funny friend.

And I think part of this was that. Well, what, so back to palace Verde, you know, it’s quite a, as I said, like a conservative, um, neighborhood and for whatever reason, my Jewish dad from the Bronx and four, other of his best friends, also from the Bronx landed in palace Verdi’s estates, California, all my friends thought my dad was the funniest [00:41:00] person they ever met in their life.

And I’m like, he’s just a Jew from the Bronx. Um, they’re all this way. Uh, but no, he, so I think my dad is very funny and his friends are very funny and I just loved comedy. And I think I also, you know, growing up wasn’t necessarily the friend that was like valued for their, their beauty. I was a bit of a late bloomer.

And so I really leaned into like being funny and making people laugh and kind of being like the funny, silly, goofy friend and. Yeah, I just really loved it. I always went for those roles in the plays. And you know, when I was in Northwestern, I did like Northwestern sketch television and STV, and wanted to produce more of the comedic movies, student films that we were doing.

Like I just really gravitated towards it 

[00:41:57] Joe Towne: in prep for today. If one was [00:42:00] to Google your name and look at Pinterest, oh God, can we tell that you were planning a wedding? But, uh, one of the things I was able to find is there are a couple of inspirational quotes, right? And so one of the inspirational quotes, uh, is Audrey Hepburn and it’s, it’s happy girls are the prettiest.

[00:42:21] Liza Katzer: Wow. I don’t even remember 

[00:42:24] Joe Towne: that. So here’s this pre-show thing maybe with younger you, and you know, if you’re laughing, you’re probably happy. And you know, maybe that’s one of the things that you were seeking without being able to articulate it or put it into words. 

[00:42:39] Liza Katzer: I was really seeking attention too. And I really wasn’t getting it for like my physical beauty.

Like I had a lot of friends in high school who were like dating and always had a lot of attention and I just really didn’t have that. But my seat at the table was like a sense of humor. Yeah. Um, wow. But I don’t [00:43:00] remember that quote. Oh my God. I’m so embarrassed. But yes, I did just plan a wedding for August.

I don’t, I’m not just obsessed with dresses. Well, 

[00:43:08] Joe Towne: and it’s one of your only hosts in the last few years on your social media and you and your husband are stunning in your photos. So, um, whatever you’re doing, that’s making you happy, uh, is, is radiating out of you probably 

[00:43:21] Liza Katzer: not being on social media. So funny.

I, I really, um, the last post I really did were like years ago, producing a film and then I just kind of decided that it wasn’t great for my mental health. Like I really, I really am a victim to like the grass is greener compare and despair. Like I’m, I’m really, uh, suffer a FOMO. So I just kind of took a step back for awhile.

[00:43:49] Joe Towne: You’ve probably heard of FOMO. It’s an underlying form of anxiety that we’re missing out on something or that other people are having more fun than us. FOMO can be [00:44:00] exhausting and overwhelming social media amplifies this experience. While many of us look to social media for connection, we may find ourselves despairing as we compare what we see others doing to our own lives.

Jomo is known as the joy of missing out. The invitation to stay home when you’re feeling the pressure to go out, to trust, listening to what you need and more deeply to enjoy what you’re doing in this moment, without worrying about what everyone else is doing. Jomo refers to the gratifying feeling you get.

When you break away from the real or virtual activities of your social group and spend time doing exactly what you most want to do, Jomo is consciously choosing what makes you happy and being intentional about how you spend your time. Jomo lets us slow down. It lets us reconnect to our senses. It invites spontaneity back into our lives and it gives us more time for what matters.[00:45:00] 

It helps interrupt the pattern of scanning for what other people might think of us, be it on social media or in real life. The fear of other people’s opinions or pho Poe, according to Dr. Jervais is a driver of anxiousness and anxiety. So let’s pause for a moment wherever you are and see if you can feel into what’s driving you to action.

Is it rooted in fear or is it flowing from joy? Sometimes it can be as simple as that 

[00:45:37] Liza Katzer: and thousands of dollars on your wedding photos, someone asked to see them. So, so that was my, my re-entry it’s a social media. 

[00:45:43] Joe Towne: Okay. So lies up in your social media. I discovered cause you and I, I think I’ve only been to one sporting event together.

I think we went to a basketball game in Atlanta. We can find you at Dodger games for almost a decade Lakers, super bowl, like the intersection of sport and arts. [00:46:00] And now you’re working on a show. That’s at the intersection of sport and art. And I have this just curious drive in me. I’m wondering your take on, what do you think.

That artists and athletes can learn from one another so 

[00:46:13] Liza Katzer: much. It’s really interesting in Ted lasso, we talked about it at the beginning, but really just that openness and vulnerability. And it is wild to me that in the year like 2021, that Ted lasso is being recognized as it should for introducing vulnerability in a sport setting, particularly male vulnerability.

And, um, it’s wild to me, how we just don’t teach that there’s no curriculum for it. There’s no emphasis on it. Like even the choice of having a character, um, in season two, the sports psychologist, uh, who comes in and helps the team is so valuable because you’re, you’re showing people that like this is normal.[00:47:00] 

[00:47:02] Joe Towne: We often hear the term sports psychology, but how is it different than regular psychology? Psychology is the scientific study of how people behave, think and feel the disease model or mental illness approach to psychology focuses on identifying what’s wrong with people in order to fix them. During the 1950s, Abraham Maslow became one of the founders and driving forces behind the school of thought known as humanistic psychology.

This focuses on human strengths and potential rather than neuroses and pathologies his theories, including the hierarchy of needs self-actualization and peak experiences became fundamental subjects in the humanist movement and were considered to be kind of rebellious, Maslow, coined the phrase positive psychology, but [00:48:00] Martin Seligman is credited as the father of positive psychology.

He defines this as the scientific study of flourishing on multiple levels. Positive psychology is the study of happiness and what makes life worth living. It looks at the emotional health and wellbeing of people combining the virtue, ethics of Confucius and Aristotle with modern psychological theories of motivation.

The field is interested in the ideas of flow, optimism, and hope, and how to build strengths in people. This is where sports psychology and positive psychology can intersect sports. Psychology is rooted in the concept of seeking a competitive edge research in sports psychology began in the late 19th century furthered by the work of such psychologists as Norman triplet, who in 1898, found that cyclists who rode with others performed better.

Thanks to the [00:49:00] social and competitive aspects of. In 1925 psychologist, Coleman Griffith founded the first American sports psychology laboratory at the university of Illinois, and went on to consult with such professional teams as the Chicago Cubs at the same time, a trio at Stanford university psychology graduate student, BC graves, professor Walter Miles, PhD end college football coach Glenn pop Warner came together and experiment to find the fastest way to get the offense to move in unison.

When the center hiked the ball miles and graves were in the forefront of a movement that is everywhere in sports today using psychological insights and experimental techniques to get every possible advantage over opponents. Very few people are taught how to be happy or to build on their strengths.

Sports psychology has become an important field for amateurs and [00:50:00] professionals. There doesn’t have to be something wrong for an athlete to seek sports psychology services. They may just have an interest in optimizing themselves, not only in their craft of study, but also within their life. Today psychologists often focus on the mental aspects of sport because as baseball, great, Yogi Berra realized so long ago, half of this game is 90% mental.

[00:50:26] Liza Katzer: This is good. There’s no stigma around this. You don’t see a therapist because something’s bad. Maybe you see a therapist because you’re a human and you have things to work out and talk through and feelings to process. It’s. I really hope that that show continues to like normalize just the very human experience of having uncomfortable feelings and talking through them in the same way that if you’re an athlete and you have an uncomfortable knee, or you sprained your ankle, you go to the physical therapist and you work through that.

Like if you’re [00:51:00] having a personal, emotional issue, that to me seems just as if not more important to work through. And of course everything’s connected to. So if there’s something in your head, like, as we saw not to spoil anything, but the people have one of the characters, you haven’t seen it, I’m soiling it.

Um, but you know, the character of Danny Rojas and season two first episode. So come on and catch up, uh, gets the yips and, and that’s part of why they bring in, you know, the therapist to, to work through that with him. But it’s, it’s all connected. If there’s something emotional. That’s happening. It will most likely show us.

[00:51:38] Joe Towne: I was introduced to psychology at a pretty young age. I, when my parents split, I saw a psychologist for the first time and there was some value in learning how to find my voice again, in the midst of that transition and being able to speak up for what I needed. Probably the scariest thing that I can imagine is sitting down in front of parents and telling them what I needed.

But I also think that, [00:52:00] uh, it, in high school, we were fortunate to have a psychology class that was kind of introducing college level psychology principles and a little bit of an early age. And in college, my minor was in abnormal psychology, but w what I mostly was studying was deceased. I was studying like the three kinds of brain, right.

In ego, super ego. But for the most part, I wasn’t really studying optimization of self. I was studying disease. And the DSM, what I love about sports psychology in particular is it’s rooted in the idea of positive psychology and the idea of optimization of self. So it’s not always that we have to go with a problem, although the problem might lead us to the invitation of how can we be better and how can we optimize what we’re doing.

So I love that that’s a huge part of the season. You know, what I’m really hearing is that athletes, coaches the sort of almost toxic male, um, traps can be addressed. Uh, [00:53:00] through the lens of an artist and vulnerability, and we can, I think maybe athletes can learn about the value of vulnerability to make them better at what they do.

We’re curious about is, is there anything you’ve observed about athletes that you think artists writers, actors, directors might learn? 

[00:53:18] Liza Katzer: There’s sometimes like a preciousness that I think can get in the way of artists. And I, you know, I did grow up loving and doing sports. I played basketball in high school.

I was the starting center, no big deal. And I actually wrote my college essay about my basketball coach, because he was so I had so much respect for him and I feared him and I was intimidated by him and he pushed us beyond our limits. Like it was, you know, I think like now I laugh about it, but I compared it to like suiting up for like war, like putting on my armor.

And like I would, you know, of course as like a freshman in high school wearing like me pads and a mouth guard. [00:54:00] And, but really like the team mentality, I think is so important. I think that’s something that artists can gain is like being one of a whole and not just striving for the spotlight and thinking it’s about you.

It’s like, how do I be a part of this team? And maybe in theater, like being a part of a cast. A group of performers that is more present, but I think often in, in film and TV, it’s like, it can be so singular and, you know, especially when you become more famous and you have the fancy trailer and you have everyone treat me this way on set.

And I come in at this time and don’t talk to me and don’t make eye contact with me. And like all that stuff. It’s just like, you’re part of the whole, I actually think it’s been so interesting shooting in the UK because they, um, there’s a very different perspective there. I think the actors have a very different perspective and it’s much more, it’s much less star focused and it’s about the collective and the whole, even in the way they’re compensated, like it’s much more [00:55:00] uniform.

Um, and I do think that that team mentality now, of course, if you go to like professional sports and it changes a little bit, but yeah, 

[00:55:09] Joe Towne: I’m hearing in there, there’s a difference between independent solo sports and team sports. You played a team sport with basketball and, and I think that, um, here’s four things that I’m going to tease out of.

What I heard from you. The first is there’s a preciousness that artists can have. And sometimes it’s like, okay, to let it be what it is and not try to make more out of it or luxury in 37 takes on something. Right. Like just do it. Let’s do it. And let’s go get a pint number, comfort zone. Like maybe your coach encourage you to go a bit outside your comfort zone at times.

And so maybe as artists there’s value in that for us and not just staying in our safe environment, working in our room and optimal conditions, like sometimes conditions aren’t optimal and it doesn’t mean we have to work in risky, unsafe, toxic conditions. We’re working on that collectively. But I think the idea of being outside our comfort zone is something we can value.

I’m also hearing [00:56:00] in addition to being part of a team and seeing our place in that, that gearing up, you know, um, the idea of how do I prepare for these big moments where it’s game time. And so I think that’s so beautifully articulated, you know, you’ve been, this has been a long time coming and I know the success that’s happening now, but is there anything you can share with us about how Ted lasso came to be a show that you were producing?

[00:56:24] Liza Katzer: Um, it’s actually a really interesting story. How Ted lasso came to be, um, I was with bill Lawrence, my boss, who is wonderful in Vancouver shooting a little show called life sentence. And we had just done the table read. And, uh, we do’s are bill Lawrence’s production companies. Doozer um, we had just sent the script for bad monkey to Jason Sudeikis to see if he would be interested in, uh, touching himself to star.

So we can get this [00:57:00] script off the ground. Bill had written the pilot script of bad monkey for FX, and unfortunately they passed. So now it was back to us and we were trying to attach a star to try to get it made. Jason called us and politely declined and said, no, thank you, bad monkeys, not for me, but would you please take a look at these commercials that I shot?

There’s a character that I did called Ted lasso when we were promoting premier league soccer for NBC sports. And I want to turn it into a show. Would you be interested in doing that with me? So bill was like, Liza, come in here at this production office in Vancouver and we watch these on YouTube and we’re like, this is really funny.

It fell. And my concern was like, it’s very sketchy though. Like, it’s a big character. Like how do we, you know, grow this into like a 30 minute comedy? Like. Well, it’s really funny and Jason’s amazing. Like, yeah, let’s do it. So we’ll figure it out. So then, um, so we got together with Jason and started working [00:58:00] on the pitch and we actually pitched it all around town twice at Netflix.

Everybody, if I’m remembering this correctly, I think everybody passed except for apple and. They were very enthusiastic. And I think it was a, the deal was for a script to series. So we had to, we wrote a pilot script and based on that, they would pick it up to series or not. Um, and so that was the beginning.

The success of Ted lasso has now led to us finally making bad monkey at apple. So the success of LaFollette to apple being like, Hey, we like that bad monkey script. We’ll make that. Let’s do that. So now we’re making that with Vince Vaughn and we’re shooting that in the new year in Florida. 

[00:58:47] Joe Towne: Super exciting.

Gosh, I love hearing the pivot in there too, right? Like again, you go on with this plan, you know, you’re gonna package up and attach a star and do what you do to produce [00:59:00] and Hey, politely, maybe not this, but let’s discuss this. And you saw something, you saw something in those videos, it was, uh, you know, clearly something that you felt was funny, but you also recognize the problem what’s working and what we need to solve.

How is this a 30 minute world? And, um, you know, clearly you’ve gone and done that. And you’ve, you’ve hinted at the, uh, incredible success that for those people listening 20 Emmy nominations, which is the most ever for a freshmen comedy, like how, how do you make sense. Of Ted lasso having the kind of success that is happening, 

[00:59:38] Liza Katzer: honestly, still very hard to do.

I think we’re all in shock. The show is so different from, I mean, those initial commercials were hilarious and like the kernel of what we saw in there was the comedy and this is 

[00:59:53] Joe Towne: totally different, right? Like almost more led Tasso in a way than Ted 

[00:59:56] Liza Katzer: last year. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. Very loud [01:00:00] Tasso and, oh gosh, I don’t want to butcher this, but Jason talks about like, um, ignorance plus curiosity is like Ted lasso and is a positive thing.

Like you, if you, if you’re ignorant, but you are curious and you want to learn, that’s great. But um, it’s like, oh God, I’m so getting this wrong. But ignorant, I’m hearing two words 

[01:00:22] Joe Towne: though. There’s ignorance, curiosity and humility. And it’s some math equation that only Jason’s beautiful mind make sense of.

[01:00:29] Liza Katzer: Yes. And the other one is ignorance plus arrogant. Is bad. And that’s like Donald Trump a little bit. That was the ignorance. And the arrogance was a little bit more of the lead Tasso and a little bit more of what was perhaps in those commercials, which was this like, you know, um, kind of cocky American guy coming in.

And like you Brits don’t know what you’re doing, and this is the way we do it. You know where I’m from and dah, dah, dah, and then the difference in the Ted last, so that Jason and bill and everyone created [01:01:00] for the show was more of the ignorance plus humility. So it’s this American who doesn’t know what he’s doing, but he’s coming in and he has this humility and this vulnerability, and he’s curious, and he wants to learn how to do it and wants to understand this new way of doing it as opposed to I don’t get this.

So it must be wrong in my ways. Right. Um, so that was a big change in the character. You know, the reason it’s having this moment. It’s been awhile that comedies, that TV has really made us feel good. And perhaps the world. Yeah. And there was just a really, and maybe it was like, you know, it was the Obama era.

Things were good. Like we were diving into these really interesting, darker, more dramatic half hours like these dramadies and they were all amazing. I mean, some of my favorite shows like, you know, master of none and Atlanta and insecure and like transparent, like these very personal stories with a lot of struggle and a lot of like grounded heart and, [01:02:00] and drama and pain.

And I think given what we were going through in the world with the Trump presidency, a very dramatic election cycle and the middle of a global pandemic with everyone at home, people just wanted to feel a little bit of levity and hope and optimism. And that’s when Ted lasso came out, which is a show about all those things.

And I think the beauty of it is that it’s still goes to the darkness and it still shows the pain. And, you know, Ted is going through a divorce in the first season and there’s still a lot of humanity in it, but yet it is hopeful and optimistic. And I think that’s really what the country needed at the time.

When it came out. 

[01:02:45] Joe Towne: Yeah. It’s so beautifully said. And, um, I know that obviously people that have seen it and know some of the iconic imagery from it, the sign that hangs over his door says believe, and it’s what they tap in the same way. You might, um, with play like a champion today, [01:03:00] if you were at Notre Dame or I’m in, at a place like the Seattle Seahawks.

So teams that have a sign as a touchstone, that’s something that I think people might know, but that quote, that really stuck with me from the first season, I think maybe inspired by Walt Whitman was be curious, not judgmental. And so I love hearing an insight into the math of that, and I’m sure that that comes from Jason and, um, you know, the team that, you know, he and he and bill and you have put together, um, the idea of, of thinking about things like that, the idea of curiosity and humility and, and the, the toxic inverse of all of that.

And what, what happens 

[01:03:39] Liza Katzer: when yeah. I love that quote and I actually love that we had like a lot of drama getting our merge situation sorted for this show. It took a long time to get Warner brothers and apple and everyone on board, but there was so much like black market merchants out there. And so I saw a lot of, be curious, not judgmental and on like [01:04:00] jerseys and baseball hats.

And I was like, I love that. Men are wearing sports gear that says be curious, not judgmental, like that’s everything. And I think it’s a lot of, um, you know, look, it’s a comedy room. I think, safe to say all the writers have had a healthy dose of therapy and life experience and their own personal struggles.

And so I think it’s really cool to get, and it doesn’t hit you over the head with these messages. It’s just like, you know, a lot of the positive phrases or a little nuggets of wisdom that people have taken away from their life experience and putting it in the show in a way that isn’t, off-putting, it’s not like, you know, um, accusing anyone or trying to teach anyone a lesson, but just kind of exposing these messages to the world in a very palatable way, I think is, is part of the magic.

[01:04:50] Joe Towne: Clearly we see a result, right? And we see the result in not only anything from people writing about it, tweeting about it awards, but we see the result on screen and [01:05:00] what we get to experience and. So often what I’m curious about is what is the process that allows us to have these kinds of results? Not so we can try to replicate it, but so we can seek processes that re that, you know, maybe we get invited to do things differently than we’ve ever done them before.

And it seems like a word like collaboration is prioritized. You know, whenever I hear people talking about it, like Bill’s always on Twitter, like team effort. Thank you so much for the compliment team effort. Right? When you hear Brett on Bernie Brown’s podcast talking about the writer’s room, he’s like, we talk about Brenae brown all the time and Esther Perel, and like, we’re, we’re talking about these.

And then we add in the jokes later and it feels like you’re building the comedy around really important issues and emotional vulnerabilities and things people can relate to. So I’m wondering like, is the process itself enjoyable? Like writing it, shooting it and it does that help translate on the [01:06:00] screen?

[01:06:01] Liza Katzer: That is a great question. And it made me think of what you were asking earlier too, of like how this kind of comes together. First of all, There’s such a little sprinkle of luck. Like, you know, I feel like in all of our shows, you always want to make the best show possible and you try to bring the pieces together and pair people together and hire the right writers and the right actors.

And you know, all the pieces have to come together just so, and sometimes it just doesn’t work. You can have the best people on your team and it just doesn’t work. And so this one, like we really, and we, I mean, bill and Jason, of course, like, and Joe Kelly and Brendan hunt, who all created it, like everyone took such pains to make the decisions and really thought everything through.

And I think we all did an excellent job hiring the best people to tell the story. And then it was just that little bit of luck of it just jelling and working. But, um, you know what I like to tell people about the partnership is. [01:07:00] Bill who I’ve worked with and for about a decade now, like he has always done comedy with heart.

Like he he’s been doing the same things and scrubs or spin city. And, um, I think it’s now just coming back around in Vogue, maybe after we took that little detour in the more dramatic comedies, but, and, you know, and he started in, in network. And so he very much is about telling a story, usually telling a story in 22 minutes and, and really having, you know, the comedy come from character.

So really well-developed characters that love each other and like really focusing on like the structure of a 22 minute episode of television and getting the stories out. And that was kind of his approach. And of course the comedy and hard comedy with jokes. And then Jason approached it as, um, you know, someone who really wanted to tell a story and wanted to let it breathe and maybe saw it more as like an [01:08:00] indie film.

Like, you know, how do we make this beautiful and take our time with it and really dive into like the emotional arcs of these characters and the drama of what’s happening, honestly, less so focused on the comedy. It seemed from my perspective, but the marriage of bill and Jason just clicked in the right way where that balance happened to work beautifully.

And oftentimes from. Perspective as a producer when we are making those marriages, which is, you know, with maybe a less experienced writer and a supervisor, like it doesn’t always click in the right way. And so this balance just happened to work. So, you know, I think if it was up to Jason, they would have been much longer episodes that were more dramatic and maybe a bit like, uh, like slower and more, more cinematic.

And then with bill, he’s like, you know, 22 minute episode of comedy pacing, like, you know, and [01:09:00] you put that together and it just created Ted last. I want it. 

[01:09:03] Joe Towne: Yeah. It’s like, if we think about making a meal or making, you know, specific dishes, sometimes having the staffing this week together, uh, really makes the dish pop.

And, you know, I know that there sometimes if you hear Jason talking about it, you know, he often describes this idea of season two being the empire strikes back. So clearly there’s this idea of this, uh, you know, this darker sort of SQL, but again, film and maybe more emotional, uh, and you hear somebody like Brett talk about the Muppets.

You know, it feels to me a little bit like these two projects might be helping inspire the show in different ways. 

[01:09:40] Liza Katzer: No, that’s really funny. It’s I know. Loves the Muppets and it’s, I mean, I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the writer’s room. I’m not in the writers room, so I don’t really know exactly what goes in, but yes, Jason definitely talks about, um, star wars a lot in his reference that throughout.

And so he definitely has the show mapped in his head as [01:10:00] this three part series, whether or not they’ll be more what form it will come in TBD. Sure. 

[01:10:05] Joe Towne: I mean, look, there’s more than three star wars, but it started as an original trilogy. I’m still 

[01:10:11] Liza Katzer: trying to wait for all of that to come together. But, um, but yeah, like I think there’s a lot of different influences.

And as you said before, everyone’s kind of bringing something from their own personal life experience and it really starts with the stories and the grounded stories and the character and all the comedy is coming from the characters. And then obviously there’ll be joke passes and comedy passes and going back in and sprinkling things in there.

But, um, but yeah, that’s funny. I actually, now I want to ask Brett about the methods and be like, are you like where’s Kermit, where’s miss piggy. Um, but I hadn’t really heard any specifics about that. I’ll find out 

[01:10:51] Joe Towne: sometimes we have a plan, right? So for the first year, this launched in a pandemic, it was bingeable.

We could watch all of the shows at the same time. And now all of a sudden [01:11:00] there’s a bit of a different release, right. And there’s a different plan. We’re going to roll them out, um, every week. And so it’s a little bit of a different model, but also. You had gotten out in advance of writing the season and then they decided to add two extra episodes on you.

And so watching the show, there’s almost like these two episodes that are like a little bit of a standalone sort of journey. And I’m curious to know if you could talk about that because I don’t know that many people at home might think about that. They might just go, how come this episode, 

[01:11:32] Liza Katzer: it’s really funny that you say that.

Cause I think there are some rumors flying around, not all of them. Correct. Um, but I had seen that some people were saying that, you know, it was a 10 episode order and then they added two extra, but actually we knew it was going to be 12 episodes. So we knew early on, I think as we were starting to write that there would be 12 episodes why we chose to do the Christmas episode as the fourth episode and release it in [01:12:00] the middle of the summer.

I don’t know. Um, but we did know when we were working out the season that we would have 12 and then the other standalone episode, um, episode nine beards, big night out on the town, that one was also planned early on. And that was meant to be more of a bottle episode and to really a little tribute to Brendan and coach beard and.

Kind of see his journey outside of, of the usual storytelling and kind of the idea of that was that, you know, in the beginning of the episode, you Bearden and, um, and Ted lasso are walking together and we always go to Ted lasso has experience, but what happens if we peel off with beard and see what happens in his world?

And it got really wild and like, you know, I know some people really loved it. Some people not so much, but it was definitely a departure. And I think it was just a fun exploration, um, whether or not there’ll be anything like that in season three. I do not. 

[01:12:59] Joe Towne: What’s so [01:13:00] exciting. You know, the, the fantastical, um, night that coach beer goes on, it’s pretty epic.

And, um, it feels like there’s some homages, but certainly getting that, let that character breathe more and get a glimpse into things we might not normally see as awesome. And just want to sort of name for me. One of the things about the Christmas episode that I was so moved by, it was sort of almost a throwaway moment, but you know, there, this table is getting bigger.

This table is getting bigger. And the here you have, um, this family that like found each other for Christmas, and that’s something that we’ve always tried to do, like an orphan Thanksgiving, or, you know, big family suppers and welcoming and friends who are family. And when he was going around the table and sort of naming where everyone was from their name and where they were from.

It gave not only such humanity, each character sort of here, but I just felt like what a good leader on a team to know that [01:14:00] as opposed to treating players like commodities. And I, that to me was like just a tiny little thing that just goes to show the depth of what must happen. Um, the thoughtfulness that goes into the telling of these stories, there’s 

[01:14:16] Liza Katzer: so much thoughtfulness, um, that goes into it.

Like Jason has thought so thoroughly about each character backstory and where they’re from. And one of the things that bill does that I love is that he completely tweaks characters based on the actors that he cast. So one thing that people might not even know is that Christo who plays, um, Danny Rojas came in and auditioned for Jamie tart and.

We loved him so much and thought he was so unique and so interesting that bill was like, we have to just make this guy a character on the show. So we completely created this new character because of this actor. We saw the [01:15:00] same as with all those other players on the team is really taking a lot about who they are as people as actors, where they’re from and bringing that into the show.

And I think that helps make it so authentic instead of being again precious about like, well, these are my words, and these are the characters that we wrote. So let’s cast according to that and fit people in these, in these slots. I love the approach. And I so admire that, um, approach of who are we working with as people let’s really get to know them as people beyond just being actors and write that into their characters.

And then it’s so much more authentic. Uh, so that, that was really cool. And I’m hoping that in season three, like, and it’s tough because there’s so many amazing actors and great players, and I wish we could go deep into all of them. You know, it’s a whole team, but in season three, we’ll definitely be diving in deeper into a lot of those characters.

[01:15:54] Joe Towne: There’s so much in here that I’m so curious about lies that I want to talk to you for a moment about risk. [01:16:00] So as a company, and you’re thinking about the kind of shows you want to make, you know, you said, you know, bill sort of came from a background and cut his chops in like half hour. Right. So how do you make the leap when you’re deciding on what kind of projects you wanna do?

Producing half hour shows two hour long shows. Like how do you know that it’s going to be like Phil Collins, leaving Genesis and Michael Jordan playing for the white side. 

[01:16:23] Liza Katzer: Oh my God. Amazing. Um, well, it’s funny. I think part of why I have been at this company so long is that I am, I have been in the past very insecure and filled with self doubt and constantly questioning everything I do.

And it’s no wonder that I work for a man who is very confident and believes he can do it all. Um, I think there’s a bit of like blind optimism that just kind of, you know, carries us through. Like, I think bill also has had enough success in what he does, [01:17:00] that he has reason to believe that like, let’s take a shot, let’s see what happens.

Like it’ll either work out or it doesn’t, you know, he’s not as afraid of failure, I guess, as I am, it’s so hard to get a TV show on the air and then so hard for it to like catch on and get people to watch. So I think a lot of times we’re just like, let’s do the best we can and see what happens. You know, we’ve branched out a lot.

Like when I started at the company, we were mandated by Warner brothers, which is our studio where we’re bill has his overall deal. We were mandated to basically just do network half hours and mostly multi cams. Cause those made more money. They were cheaper to produce. And then as the industry changed and we got away from just only doing network and more into streaming, you know, at first they were like, do not do streaming stay the course, stay network.

Don’t waste your time with that, even though it was sexier and more fun. And we definitely wanted to tell those types of stories, but we, [01:18:00] you know, we really say to network and then slowly things started opening up. You know, we, we tried some hour long shows, but everything we do is going to have comedy.

Like it’s going to be an action comedy or it’s going to be more of a character driven hour. Like it might, you know, be more dramatic, but it will always have that backbone of comedy. Yeah. So we started doing that the hours and then we started doing streaming shows so much so that now we’re not really being encouraged to do network anymore.

We’re, we’re definitely taking out a couple pitches, but it’s not, it’s not the focus. Things have shifted so much in that time span. We’re also doing, um, animation with, uh, Clone. Hi, we’re doing a season two and three of clone high, which was a bit of a cult hit in 2001. Um, so we’re bringing that back with Lord and Miller and that’s going to be on HBO max.

So yeah, we’re really all over the place with 

[01:18:57] Joe Towne: I’m hearing that you and bill are a good balance, right? [01:19:00] So, uh, he has this optimism and this trust and confidence. And, you know, you might temper that a little bit. You might be the humility that sort of tempers that in a way, um, which leads you both to be curious.

And I’m hearing that for a while, you’ve wanted to do streaming industry hadn’t changed yet. And people are like, Hey, let’s, let’s do what works let’s do. What is inexpensive let’s do what makes us the most money? And at a certain point, when that stops working in the same way, when the industry’s changing, there’s a, a pain that, uh, maybe affects, um, people at the studio where all of a sudden they’re like, oh, this isn’t working.

This pain of this is going to lead us to change. And so sometimes maybe it takes that discomfort or irritability or, you know, whatever it is to, to actually make the change. And it sounds like it’s actually something that you’re now being celebrated for. So you had a little bit of a vision and insight in terms of that.

You’ve mentioned a few different types of people that you’re working with and you’re around some funny people I [01:20:00] want to ask, like, do you ever fan girl behind the scenes. Like, does that impact you at all? Or are you like nonplussed? Like I’ve been around? I 

[01:20:10] Liza Katzer: don’t think I really do. There’s certain people that I watched as like a younger person as a child or teenager.

Like, you know, we’re doing this, uh, TV show with Vince Vaughn and I actually like got a little nervous before he came to our office the other day for a read, um, with another actress. Cause I was like, wait, like wedding Crashers and like, um, you know, all these movies that I grew up watching and he’s so funny.

And like, I think I reverted a little bit to like my childhood self of like, oh, what’s he going to be like in person? But for the most part, I don’t really, I think I really like anything. I just kind of turned that off. Any sort of fan girl, like buzz. I just, I have to very professional. I wear my blazers on those days.

[01:20:56] Joe Towne: Do they have shoulder pads? 

[01:20:57] Liza Katzer: Oh yes. No, of course. What am I, [01:21:00] uh, Jeff and gold. Who is the other, um, executive that we work with? I think kind of caught on to that. He’s like you’re wearing a blazer today. Um, I was like, yeah, I have to, I wear my, my blazer and I wear heels on days when. I need to be professional or ask for more money.

I love 

[01:21:19] Joe Towne: it. Um, I, part of the reason why I ask is, um, I have a weird thing that happens to me and it doesn’t happen often, but there’s certain times when there’s certain people that I met, where maybe I grew up, you know, experiencing being moved by a story that someone told. And now all of a sudden, like all that’s very present for me when I’m in their presence.

So, uh, a bunch of years ago before I moved to LA to pursue TV and film as an actor, I was living in New York city. And I had started to work with, uh, Gary Austin, who is the founder and creator of the Groundlings. And eventually I’d go on to become as assistant. He was one of my early mentors and so visiting for the summer.

And [01:22:00] while I was out here, I came to visit his west coast classes. And the two TAs had overheard that I was like beside myself, that Jennifer Gray was coming. She had been a long time student. And I was like, I came to them in the morning and I was like, I couldn’t sleep last night. I kept thinking that I might accidentally say, nobody puts baby in the corner.

And I don’t know what I’m going to do. Like this is improv and I don’t know what I’m going to do. And so they told Gary, so Gary decides to put us in a scene together. And, um, the scene was basically, we were husband and wife or boyfriend, girlfriend. And we were celebrating a made up holiday, which is a hybrid of Christmas and Hanukkah.

He made me the Jewish spouse and her, the non Jewish spouse. And we were supposed to do two things. We were supposed to fight, like get in a big fight and we were supposed to smooch and make out in the midst of the fight. And it was definitely, um, one of the more petrifying [01:23:00] things that I’ve ever had to do.

Um, I did not end up saying nobody puts baby in the corner, but, um, you know, if you ask, uh, people in the innermost circle, I sometimes have these weird, oh my 

[01:23:10] Liza Katzer: God, 

[01:23:12] Joe Towne: your hero made out with the hero. Uh, and I did not try to lift her in the air in some kind of dance routine. Uh, it was, it was, it was quite a, quite a Rite 

[01:23:20] Liza Katzer: of passage that would freak me out.

I think that is a level of like vulnerability and intimacy that I think I would absolutely panic. I think being like, hello, welcome to juicer productions. I’m producer lives of cats are like in my blazer and heels, I feel very safe 

[01:23:37] Joe Towne: and put on your, you again, you, you suit up, you go back to your basketball games and you put on your shin guards and then you’re ready for 

[01:23:43] Liza Katzer: action.

My God, my mouth guard, the whole thing. Yeah. 

[01:23:47] Joe Towne: I want to talk about something that athletes do, which is like review game tape. And that, you know, I know that at companies they do postmortems after seasons, like coaches do it. So after a season of a show or after a [01:24:00] non pickup, non-linear. What does a post-mortem look like for you?

Do you flush it and move on or do you take time to extrapolate any sort of learning from like, even if it’s a success, like, okay, season one was a success now, what do we want to do season two? Or if it doesn’t work out, what does a post-mortem look like for you? We 

[01:24:20] Liza Katzer: do not have any sort of formal post-mortem.

There is no like, okay, let’s all gather and talk through what worked and what didn’t, but that absolutely happens just in casual conversation. I think one of the things that I both love and don’t love about TV is, you know, it moves so fast and things get passed on or they don’t go forward and they’re done for the most part.

Like it’s like, all right onto the next, like, I love it because you get fairly quick answers. I mean, things are changing now that it’s streaming things are a lot slower, but in the [01:25:00] network cycle, it was very quick. And you knew we are getting an answer about whether or not this is going forward. And then if it doesn’t, we might be able to, you know, dish it off to another network.

See if anyone else wants it. They probably don’t because it’s so hard to take something that’s failed in one place and set it up in another. It definitely happens, but it’s hard, but in the streaming landscape, it’s slower. However, compared to like film. It moves much faster and you pretty much have an answer if it’s going or not.

One of the things I love about working with bill is that if he believes in something, he does not take that, no, we will. Then as a company, put our heads together about, you know, like you asked what was working or what wasn’t working, try to make some changes. Maybe it’s like, we need to attach a big piece of talent.

I think we’re really seeing that in the streaming landscape is that there’s so much content. And in order for something to really stand out, sometimes it needs that big name, star attached or a big [01:26:00] director or something that kind of puts it over the edge. So oftentimes we’ll try to package it a little bit, um, with, you know, again, most likely an after maybe a director, some sort of element and then take it to the marketplace again.

And, you know, bill has done this multiple times, which I love with, you know, scrubs was taken from NBC and then moved to ABC where it had another life after NBC was done with it. And then Cougar town started as an ABC show and then they were going to cancel it and we moved it over to TBS and it went on for another couple of seasons.

That’s happened with pilots. We developed a pilot for CBS. They pass on it and then bill brought it over to TBS and we did two seasons of a show called ground floor, bad monkey. As I mentioned before, passed on at FX, packaged it with talent. How to, I mean, winning show in the, in the middle, but then took it over to apple and they picked it up to [01:27:00] series.

So we very informally discuss what worked, what didn’t. And sometimes, like we were saying before, it really is just that, that luck of like, if a partnership works or not, like, you know, we’ve had, we’ve developed shows with younger, maybe less experienced creators and then had to pair them with a showrunner, um, in series.

And sometimes that show runners shares the vision and it’s a great working relationship and they find the balance and they know how to work together. And sometimes, you know, that show runner comes in and doesn’t see it the same way as the creators. And then there’s a lot of disagreement about what the, what the show should be.

And then those don’t usually end up working or a change needs to be made. So it’s really tough. And it’s, there’s no formula 

[01:27:44] Joe Towne: going back to the sports analogy. If you’re putting together a team, you’re almost acting like a GM in a way, and you’re bringing elements together and sometimes stars gel and they make magic and sometimes there’s friction and they don’t end when everything’s in alignment.

What I’m hearing is [01:28:00] that is an added layer of magic. I’m also hearing that postmortems don’t have to be super formal and drawn out. Sometimes they can be in a taxi ride or in a short conversation, but it sounds like there is some value in that when you’re coming up against something where I’m coming up against a similar response or wall or itching, the giddy-up and.

So, okay. So, so that’s really great information as far as post-mortem, it sounds like there is some value and it’s been effective in terms of sustaining and figuring out ways to pivot networks and also continue to get shows made, even if it takes awhile. What about success? Like how do you measure a success for you?

Is it internal? Is it critical? Is it financial? How do you make sense of success and what does, how do you measure it? 

[01:28:49] Liza Katzer: That’s a good question. And I think it goes back a little bit to what we were saying in the beginning of the conversation. I think for me, success is very internal and in my younger [01:29:00] years I was looking for an external success or external validation.

And it’s interesting. So I’ve mentioned a couple of times I’ve been at this company a long time and over the course of the 10 years that I’ve been there, I, you know, I would hit a roadblock or want a promotion that maybe wasn’t coming fast enough on my timeline. And so I would, you know, interview here and there, there was a time when I got another job offer that a lot of people in the industry were really encouraging that I take, because look, you should switch it up.

You should get a different experience. Like, you know, doozer, hasn’t really had a hit in a while. You know, like you’ve been a producer or you haven’t, I wasn’t a producer at the time, but like you’ve worked at a production company. You should be at a buyer. You should be at a network. You should be. And I really, because I didn’t trust myself at the time outsourced to other people and like, oh, this agent or this manager, or this executive they know better.

And I would ask everyone and poll [01:30:00] everyone, what should I do? What should I do? And there was something internal in me that I only able to see now in hindsight, that really wanted to stay where I was and what I wasn’t able to see then. But what I know now is that I was in an environment where I was supported and it was a very kind environment with people that were very encouraging that were very optimistic that when shit hit the fan or things got canceled or didn’t go forward, we talked about it, we laughed about it.

We moved on. Like, it was very different than the entertainment industry, attitude and energy that I experienced early on. And so there was something that was, um, really speaking to me that no one else could see everyone else was like, oh yeah, take, uh, you know, you should switch it up. You’ve been there a long time, move on, do this, do that.

But what I [01:31:00] knew is that I worked for really amazing people who I believe in creatively, who are also very wonderful humans and. That was so important to me. And so I think now looking back, like being able to show up at work and be happy and enjoy what I do and be creatively fulfilled and supportive, like that’s success that I feel successful, that I have found an environment that I like to be in the like MUN is unreal and so crazy, but I think I feel success whether or not that that continues or happen.

[01:31:37] Joe Towne: I really love that Liza cause it, it flashes back for me to the headline of the newspaper of today, which is girl learns to trust herself. And the idea of outsourcing what we know is right for us to other people feels like something that can be a trap that we fall into either for an extended period of time or until we learn that there’s another thing.

And another thing is possible. [01:32:00] And so I love that it’s internal and yes, of course financial success is helpful, right? Like it helps you get renewed at a studio. It helps overall deals get renewed and helps your job get, you know, um, maybe expanded or continued the idea of critical success and also acknowledgement in, um, you know, award season.

Probably puts the light on up at the front of the shop in a brighter way that attracts, you know, other people that come and say, Hey, maybe we should do something together. So all of those things I’m sure are outgrowths of you acknowledging your inner self. And I love that you’re in a supportive environment.

I’m really, really so moved by that for you because you’re having so much success. And because what we’re trying to talk about is like the longevity, like you hit a period in the middle where it sounds like there was some disappointment, we all have disappointment. Like perhaps there have been some shows you spend a lot of time on that.

Didn’t get seen the same way by an [01:33:00] audience or perhaps, you know, um, like you said, you put together a, uh, a team and the team just didn’t gel in quite the right way. What I’m curious about is resiliency wise, like how do you bounce back from a disappointment, whether it’s getting fired from Disney or having a show, not get picked up?

Like what advice have you discovered and what would you offer other people it’s 

[01:33:22] Liza Katzer: so interesting. Like the Disney one, so that at the time felt so devastating. Basically. Like I was explaining, we were in local language, international Disney branded film production, and they, and Disney ended up closing that entire department.

So I got laid off along with like a department of 10, 15 people. And it was devastating because you’re like, I’m losing my job and this is horrible. I mean, luckily I was an assistant and only responsible for myself. Other people had families like, you know, it’s really tough at the time. It felt terrible.

And then obviously now looking back, it was an amazing thing that happened because [01:34:00] I was able to finally go work in TV and comedy. And now I’m at a place where I’m so happy and obviously we’re seeing this success. So I think in the moment though, it was just kind of like, like one foot in front of the next, like, okay, what’s my next right action.

Like if I really linger in this negativity or in the failure, like, where’s that going to get me? Um, it’s okay to acknowledge it and to be disappointed and to like actually feel the frustration or the failure or whatever that may be. But then it’s like, all right, what’s the next right action. And after the layoff from Disney, it was like, get a new job.

Just that’s it just get a new job. Um, and I think with a lot of our shows that don’t move forward because I just enjoy creating television. And I so enjoy the people that we work with, the writers that we work with, the actors that we work with, the department heads that we work with, like. Whether [01:35:00] or not, it’s a six, the show is a success or a failure.

I’m really enjoying the job, which I know I’m so like, I’m so lucky to be in that position. So it makes the failure’s not as terrible. And it makes the successes like even better. Cause it’s with people you enjoy working with when shows don’t go forward, it’s really, it’s like heartbreaking because you put together this family and you’ve been together working so hard on something that you care so much about.

And then it just ends. But I think what keeps you going is like, all right, what’s the next one? Like, it moves so quickly and there’s always another show in, and for us at a production company, we then just immediately have to switch our focus into like, okay, what’s on the horizon. 

[01:35:42] Joe Towne: I’m hearing a similar theme to your lies.

So like I’m hearing that you so beautifully said, what’s the next right. Action. And not heard that put together in that particular way. If I have, it’s been a long time, but I love how succinct that is. What’s the next right action. [01:36:00] This had me thinking, where does that come from? I know in AA, in the big book they say, just do the next right thing.

It comes from the idea that we sometimes don’t have to have the whole day figured out or how I’m going to overcome all the obstacles in my. So chunk things into little bits and just do the next thing. And then the one after that. So how do we know what doing the right thing is? Spike Lee helped me. Now this concept also brings up for me a principle of Buddhism, right?

Action. So bird’s-eye view here for a second. The main goal of Buddhism is to find ease from suffering for all of us. The basic teachings of Buddha, which are core to Buddhism are the three universal truths, the four noble truths and the noble eightfold path. The three universal truths are Anika.

Everything is [01:37:00] changing and therefore impermanent as a wise, Buddhist might say nothing is forever. So enjoy the moment as it happens as Kansas’ one saying nothing lasts forever, but the earth and sky number two Duca life includes suffering. Whether it’s a scraped knee, embarrassment, boredom being unsatisfied in a relationship, a job, not going your way, being a fan of a team that breaks your heart.

Number three, a NATA, the no self, the self that is unchanging beyond our identity and ego. And whether you believe we continue on. The energy we create in this life matters. The four noble truths, acknowledging that suffering exists. It has a cause it has an end and there are tools that can bring about that end.

It goes on to discuss something [01:38:00] called the eightfold path. Now, without making this even more of a deep dive into Buddhism, simply put the eight folds are right view, right? Thoughts, right. Speech right conduct, right. Livelihood, right effort, right. Mindfulness and right concentration. When one sees everything just as it is and understands how everything is impermanent and connected to everything else that life involves suffering, that there are causes to that suffering.

And that there’s a way to escape from suffering. This leads directly to right intention, the aspiration to create greater happiness, wisdom and wellbeing and relieve suffering in ourselves and others. So, right. Action stems from our intention. And when we get all these things lined up, things may start to look a little different and feel a little different.

It might be uncomfortable at first, but don’t worry [01:39:00] too much about the discomfort as Ted lasso might say, Hey, taking on a challenge is a lot like riding a horse. If you’re comfortable while you’re doing it, you probably do it. I also love that you were like, Hey, can we take a moment and actually feel these feelings?

Like if I’m feeling disappointed or feeling sad, like that’s an important part of the process. And then ultimately after you have done those two things, the next right action led to what’s the vision on the horizon, which the mission, which is get the next job. It sounds like you do a similar thing at the company, right?

Like what’s the next right action for us. Maybe we need to feel some feelings, processes, disappointment, whatever that looks like. And then what’s our next job. We’re going to go create, for 

[01:39:40] Liza Katzer: example, um, I wasn’t as involved in this show because I was overseeing another one of our shows, but whiskey cavalier, which shot in Prague, starring Scott Foley, the pilot was great.

ABC loved it. Like it was such a great show and yet it did not survive past the first season. And that was [01:40:00] such a disappointment. But you know, the, I guess failure of that show then led to all of our energy, moving to Ted lasso because we were developing Ted lasso alongside that. And as soon as whiskey cavalier did not get renewed for a second season, it was like, okay, all hands on deck, Ted lasso, like, let’s go.

So you just never know in the moment. I think it’s like, you just never know what the disappointment of one thing is going to lead to. On the other 

[01:40:27] Joe Towne: side, one of my favorite coaches has a phrase that he likes to say to himself when his team loses the ball or something seemingly bad happens, which is.

Something good is just about to happen. I love that. And he says that he learned that from his mom, but he uses it as the leader in a high intensity sports environment. And he believes if we could just hold onto that belief longer than, than we have, you know, through whatever the external circumstances are that things will turn.

And it seems like very [01:41:00] similar to Ted lasso and his optimism. It seems very similar to bill van Duzer Lawrence, like kind of people that you are surrounded by. I don’t take this lightly. You were called a tastemaker in your Hollywood reporter article of, um, you know, executives to watch. And, uh, we’ll put all that in the, in the fancy notes, but I there’s two layers that I would love to explore with you because you are, you’ve been at this company for almost a decade or a decade.

You mentioned bill and Jeff, and it sounds like a lot of creators that you’ve talked about seem to be male and you offer, you know, you’re the only female executive at the company you’re offering an important perspective. And I’m curious to know, like, how has your opinion and insights sought out now and how might that be different from what you experienced the industry in the 13 or so years you’ve been in the 

[01:41:49] Liza Katzer: industry?

Yeah, that’s a really, really good question. Um, and also just reminded me of one other thing that I was going to say about my measure, like the measure of success and [01:42:00] which is definitely internal, but the other measure is that, um, the messaging and like having, like, I realize that. The power of the platform and that when it goes well, like Ted lasso, we can really get a message across.

And so I think as a woman at this company in a, in a male, you know, a male dominated industry in a male dominated company, like I know the power of my voice. And I see that, you know, there was a time where I was more timid about using my voice, especially as an assistant, especially as a younger woman, it was very much about who are the people and what are the projects that I can show my boss that he will like, like these, these are the creators that he can like play basketball with and have a beer with.

Like, these are the projects that are similar to the ones that he watches and that he made. And I think [01:43:00] without realizing it like that was, it was smart because, you know, he trusted me and he knew that he liked me. Like I was, I was doing the job in a certain way. That was, that was getting results. As I grew up in, I came of age.

It very fortunately timed with the industry and the world growing up and coming of age through the time’s up and me too, movements in this moment where, you know, it was clicking at just the right time where I felt incredibly empowered. I was already, you know, gaining my voice and my power, but then the industry told me like, yes, use it.

And it’s more important than maybe you even, maybe even knew. And so I felt very encouraged and empowered to speak very openly. And honestly, and then it started showing in the work because I was bringing in things that I liked that I wanted to watch or that I thought people around me [01:44:00] really wanted. And my boss was so supportive of that, which is part of why I love working there so much.

But, um, you know, he was very encouraging of that. It really is so important to use my position. Like I am one of the only female voices in the room at my company. So if I see something that doesn’t feel right or something that I really believe in strongly, I obviously have to say it like with conviction.

Yeah. I think like, you know, as a woman, there’s a lot of things that I want to see, which I think is kind of the next frontier in my, in my job. And what I want to do in future shows like, you know, there. Positive body image, um, which I think so many women and creators are like working towards, and there’s been so much, um, so much positive movement in that direction.

But I still think that, like, we look at a traditional, like thin tall, like young woman and like that’s what we think is beautiful. And so, you know, the age issue too, like showing [01:45:00] women into their fifties and sixties and seventies who are naturally aged and beautiful and vibrant and, um, you know, desired, sexually like, like is so important.

Um, you know, there’s such a, such a fear of aging and especially for women. And I really would love to incorporate that into some of our shows and into some of our characters. Like this is nothing to fear. Like with age comes wisdom and growth and maturity, like, that’s a good thing. It’s also just being alive.

So, you know, some of those more female oriented issues are really important to me and ones that I want to kind of address in projects moving 

[01:45:40] Joe Towne: forward. I love that Liza, and I’m really hearing a similar theme to the thing you wanted to add into measuring success, which is that we can use our platform when it’s successful to send our message across.

So let’s be clear what message we are sending across. I’m also hearing that you have been invited to use your [01:46:00] platform or your voice. To speak up and that it’s being valued. And I think it’s no surprise that then if you look at the way that, um, women writers are represented in the writer’s room on Ted last, so the kind of women characters that are in there, it’s being reflected in the art what’s going on behind the scenes.

I think also it’s so exciting. What, you just talked about, what you want to put into the world. And I can’t wait to see what you end up coming up with as a producer. I know you have to deal with strong personalities, right? Like your bosses, your talent, the network, the studio, how do you approach moments of disconnect or disagreement or misalignment?

Like how do you navigate that? Because that’s a skill that I believe you must have developed over time. 

[01:46:47] Liza Katzer: Yes. Communication, communication, communication. Um, no, it’s it’s so, um, gosh, you know, I have been, I have had a lot of, um, avenues of [01:47:00] personal growth and a lot of therapy, I think, you know, pretty solidly and consistently working with, uh, one therapist or another psychologist, whatever, since my early twenties and I’m 35 now.

And so in that work, I just have. Focused so much on communication and the communication that I use with my family, with my parents, with my partner, my relationship, like hopefully, eventually kids like definitely use it in the workplace, you know, validating, people’s feeling and experience again, like to lots of like getting, getting curious, and then trying to work with people in addressing a problem.

And I have such good examples in, in bill and Jeff of just how to do that while maintaining their, their cool and their calm and staying grounded and quiet. Like you don’t have to yell and throw a fit. And like, I just saw such bad examples [01:48:00] of communication earlier on in my career. And so to see that you can be kind and direct and calm and quiet and just effectively communicate has been really powerful and really helpful.

And having a sense of humor too. Like I was saying, you know, shit hits the fan all the time. Like things get messed up all the time. There are fires all the time. And I work with people who have a sense of humor about it. We laugh about it. We joke about being shit, show productions, and like, you know, and then kind of just like move on and solve the problem.

It’s TV, it’s entertainment. It’s supposed to be fun. Like 

[01:48:40] Joe Towne: I’m hearing so many things in there. One is that you value communication above all and it’s, it’s something that you. Have developed over time. It’s not something that you just added water to. And when I hear that over a decade of spending time in and around working with therapists, [01:49:00] you know, I think a lot of times when things are tight in our life, we can sometimes look at things that we deem as extreme bias.

And I think about the pivot that I had to make in my life, sometimes between an expense and an investment. And what I’m really hearing is that you made an investment into the skillset that is not only served. You personally, it’s serving you at your job. It’s serving you in your relationship. It may serve you in the future with regards to kids and that all those things that I can do it with grace, I can do it with poise that I can do it with calm and.

I can also do it with a sense of humor. Like, can we have humor when things are going wrong? God, that feels like, um, what a great blessing to buoy a relationship and help it sustain and keep things in perspective. I 

[01:49:45] Liza Katzer: often will take things so seriously, like at work it’s like it’s a comedy production company.

Like it’s, it’s the vibe that my bosses put forth. Like we laugh about things. We joke about things, but sometimes in my personal life, like it’s harder to find the humor in those [01:50:00] more stressful situations. So I really try to like, keep that in mind and, uh, and bring that into my personal life. Um, but yeah.

[01:50:09] Joe Towne: Okay. We’ve been talking about some pretty big themes and pretty exciting stuff and some deep stuff in this. And I’m wondering, can we have a little fun here for a minute? Of course. Great. So in the spirit of a play, um, I’d love to do like more of a lightning round, like the idea of some first things that come to mind.

So, uh, I’m going to name a couple of, um, industry terms here. And what I would love to know is like, help us define it if you will. And then give us an example from a show that you love. So for example, what is your favorite? Will they won’t they moment will they want the moment? And like, can you help us understand what that is in case somebody doesn’t know?

And an example from it doesn’t have to be your ultimate. You can change your mind tomorrow and just something that comes 

[01:50:56] Liza Katzer: to mind. Yeah. Okay. Should I answer that one or was that just [01:51:00] a, will they, or won’t they moment is just, um, in like, you know, any sort of romance, your, you have two characters, will they get together or won’t they get together usually in a romantic comedy or, you know, usually, uh, yeah, some sort of romantic relationship.

And I think my favorite will they, or won’t they. Oh my God. I mean, Ross and Rachel isn’t that 

[01:51:23] Joe Towne: everyone, I mean, it’s definitely up there. Right. I bet if we did a poll, some people, if they ever watched, cheers might say that, you know, other people, you know, I remember working in post-production on a show called ed for the longest time, Tom Cavenaugh, Julie Bowen.

So like, I love the idea that Ross and Rachel, I want to, I want people to get engaged on the socials and weigh in on their favorite. Will they won’t they moment. Okay. Can you define for us please and upstairs downstairs concept and give us an example of a great example of one that you love. Yes, of course.

[01:51:55] Liza Katzer: So an upstairs downstairs concept is when you have like [01:52:00] the kind of low level like workers kind of, um, like, you know, maybe your blue collar workers or just the assistance, the young worker bees at the bottom, and then the upstairs is the, um, more established, wealthier, um, more like professional people.

Um, an example of that would be Downton Abbey. You have your upstairs, the polite society, the wealthy family, and then you have your downstairs, the servants, the maids, the cooks, et cetera. 

[01:52:34] Joe Towne: I imagine that there’s a bit of a thread of different storylines for that. In Ted lasso, right? Like you got the soccer players and then you got the executives and depending upon what storyline we’re following, there’s a bit of an upstairs deck.

You 

[01:52:45] Liza Katzer: guys have it all. And I think famously famously, um, if you could say that, but Nate, I would say was more of a downstairs worker, a more of a downstairs person. Who’s now climbing his way upstairs. And he’s dealing with some of the, [01:53:00] the, uh, the difficulties and challenges that are coming up. Yes, exactly.

Okay. 

[01:53:05] Joe Towne: What’s a workplace 

[01:53:06] Liza Katzer: comedy, a workplace comedy is a comedy that set in a workplace such as the office. The office is, is your, your ultimate workplace comedy 

[01:53:17] Joe Towne: film or TV. What’s a meet cute. A 

[01:53:19] Liza Katzer: meet. Cute is when your protagonist, uh, meet a romantic relationship spark. So it’s the first time that, um, a couple meets and you see the spark of the start of their relationship.

[01:53:31] Joe Towne: And what’s one of your favorites, Fillmore TV. Like what’s one that all time. 

[01:53:35] Liza Katzer: I mean, I’m thinking about when Harry met Sally, cause that’s just the ultimate romantic comedy, but yeah, grapes, 

[01:53:41] Joe Towne: right? That’s like the whole car ride and the honking and the. It is, and that goes on for a long time, right? Like the entire through the night car ride.

And it’s a 

[01:53:50] Liza Katzer: whole, it’s a whole theme. Yeah. 

[01:53:52] Joe Towne: Great. Okay. How about an all hope is lost moment. 

[01:53:56] Liza Katzer: Um, and all hope is lost moment. I [01:54:00] think that would be what, like in the second act when it’s just like, oh no, all hope is lost. Like everything, everything is failing. There’s no way forward. Your protagonist hit some sort of major roadblock and it feels like all hope is lost.

And what is my favorite moment of that? Like any sports show it’s like, they lose the big game or someone gets injured or, you know, 

[01:54:25] Joe Towne: who is great on screen. Like, who do you love to see in the same, uh, atmosphere and molecules? 

[01:54:34] Liza Katzer: Yes. Uh, well only cause we’ve been talking about it, but I think that Keely and Roy have wonderful chemistry, um, they just totally click and I think they have a very like sexy, passionate, but like mature and communicative adult relationship.

I love their chemistry and the chemistry. Like doesn’t always have to be romantic to like, I think the characters on like [01:55:00] succession have amazing chemistry. Like they like the siblings and like, um, cousin, Greg and, uh, ship’s husband. What’s his name? I want to call him Tom. Yeah. Tom, Tom, Greg and Tom chemistry.

Oh my God. It’s so funny. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be romantic. I 

[01:55:19] Joe Towne: love that. Okay. So personal taste-wise tea or coffee. Oh, 

[01:55:24] Liza Katzer: definitely. Coffee. Why 

[01:55:26] Joe Towne: is tea garbage water or pigeon? Sweat? Neither. 

[01:55:28] Liza Katzer: I actually like tea, but I don’t like, so I have to do a lot of, like, I got a poor almond milk into it. I’m getting some weird, I get weird flavored teas that are like lemon glaze, lemon loaf.

I’m like, my taste is very Americanized when it comes to 

[01:55:46] Joe Towne: Silverlake, Venice, 

[01:55:48] Liza Katzer: the Brits are not, would not approve. 

[01:55:50] Joe Towne: Um, what’s your favorite? 

[01:55:53] Liza Katzer: I think it’s replaced judgment with curiosity and also be a 

[01:55:56] Joe Towne: goldfish, the goldfish. So gold fishes are [01:56:00] known to have a short 

[01:56:00] Liza Katzer: memory. Right. Kind of goes back to what we were saying about like the failures, you know, just like, okay, keep moving next.

Right. Action. Like mourn it, pay it, you know, give it the time it needs and then be a goldfish. It’s 

[01:56:12] Joe Towne: so true. Like we happen to be talking and it’s a Sunday. And so there’s football happening all over the world. Um, but the idea of like you throw an interception or you strike out or something happens and you have to come back in the next drive in five minutes, you don’t get to like, you know, if you’re pitching a show to three places in one day and like in one place, it doesn’t get sold in the room or they don’t have the reaction.

You’re hoping for, you have to have that short memory. So I think that’s, that’s really great insight. If you realize that we’re a part of team, AFC, Richmond, which character would you be? Player, coach or exactly. Oh my 

[01:56:45] Liza Katzer: God. I mean, I go, there’s so many good ones. I think Danny Rojas football, his life. He’s so happy.

He’s so joyful. And he has great hair. 

[01:56:59] Joe Towne: [01:57:00] Okay. I love it. What’s something you can’t stop watching. I 

[01:57:04] Liza Katzer: can’t stop watching. I’m sure something else will pop into my mind, but just because it’s Sunday night and I’m so excited about the Sunday night lineup of succession. Um, curb your enthusiasm and insecure. I love all three of those shows.

I’m so excited and they’re also different. So yes, I can’t stop watching the shows. My Sunday night. I love like this, this run of Sundays. Um, this really 

[01:57:30] Joe Towne: great. I’m curious, what is something that you do better than most people? The theme of this podcast is better. What’s something that you do better than most of 

[01:57:41] Liza Katzer: you.

I think I open up very easily to people and I am able to get people to share with me. And I make people very comfortable to expose some like deeper, hidden truths about themselves. And that’s actually one of my favorite [01:58:00] parts of the job is just having general meetings and getting to know people and like having like my own little mini interviews that nobody ever listens to.

But I get to really go deep and ask people questions. And I think in sharing and opening up about myself, I allow or encourage other people to do this beautiful. 

[01:58:22] Joe Towne: I’m hearing two things in their lives. I’m hearing that you build rapport really well, and that that rapport leads to connection. But by you mirroring vulnerability and sharing you invite others to do the same two threads.

That totally makes sense to me in my experience of you. And, um, thank you for sticking. Going there. Cause I think it’s beautifully put, yeah, that was challenging. What’s something that you’re working to get, 

[01:58:47] Liza Katzer: I’m working to get better at fine tuning. Some of my communication, which is like sometimes I have very like triggered first responses, um, and can be [01:59:00] defensive at times.

So I’m trying to work on pausing and just like taking a moment sometimes before I react. So slowing down, my reactions, um, is one. And then the other thing I’m working at, um, or would like to get better at is, is just being more productive. I find that when things are crazy and hectic, I can, I rise up and I’m very productive.

And when things are slow, it’s very hard for me to get it moving. 

[01:59:28] Joe Towne: What’s in the horizon that we should be looking out for. I know head of the class is out on HBO max now, uh, Jason Segel and Brett Goldstein are reading shrinking. 

[01:59:38] Liza Katzer: Yes, I’m so excited about that one because it is about therapy and psychology and I think it’ll be so cool and such wish fulfillment to kind of expose the other side of it and show a psychologist.

Who’s actually having like a breakdown of his own. Um, I think that’s going to be great. Also bad monkey with Vince Vaughn that we’re shooting [02:00:00] in the new year is going to be so fun set in Florida. Very funny, um, sort of a mystery noir detective story and the cast. It hasn’t been announced yet, but it is so good.

Um, a lot of, a lot of people I’m really excited about, and then a lot of other pieces of development that are very, um, close to me that are probably a bit more like female driven and some diverse stories that, uh, I hope we’ll have the chance to, to create. But, um, but yeah, I think we’re, we’re in a moment now because of Ted lasso that, that the industry is paying attention.

So I’m hoping that we can capitalize and, and just do the most we can with the momentum. 

[02:00:43] Joe Towne: We’ll keep an eye out, obviously on deadline for doozer and for your name and bills and Jeff’s and, um, you know, we’ll put a bunch of stuff in the show notes too, so people can follow along and home. I just want to close by saying thank you.

I want to thank you for a few [02:01:00] things I want to, I want to thank you for our conversation throughout the years. You’ve no idea how much I look forward to talking to you and how much I appreciate our conversations and whether it’s at a park named Stanley over good meals or on the backs of bicycles, or standing off to the side of a film set or listening to jazz and imagining brighter futures.

I always enjoy speaking to you celebrating life with you. I wish you an amazing honeymoon. Thank you so much. And I can’t wait until our next conversation and I hope it can be in-person. 

[02:01:31] Liza Katzer: Thank you so much, Joe. I love this conversation and I feel the exact same. I love all of our conversations. I love how you nurse me through a heartbreak in Vancouver.

Um, yes, this was a delight and thank you so much. 

[02:01:44] Joe Towne: It’s my pleasure. Please be well and much love. And, um, I’ll talk to you real soon. Talk to you soon.

Oh man, I am filled with [02:02:00] optimism now just chatting to Liza about her adventures. I love the reinforcement that when we do the lonely work, when we persist past disappointment, when we can laugh along the way at our mistakes and failures, and when we simply do the next right thing, that good things flow from there, Ted lasso is having such a profound effect on the world.

And the more I learn about the humans involved and the process involved and what they’re seeking, the more I believe in belief, let’s be goldfish, but let’s not be goldfish about eating nothing but candy bars to keep up with work demands, being so tethered to our offices that we don’t take a moment to nourish ourselves.

It’s going to lead us to being burned out. It’s fine to be ambitious and driven. Nobody’s saying we shouldn’t work hard, but as an industry, there’s a reason why I artsy pushed back on working conditions. Sleep [02:03:00] is necessary. There is a way to do things that includes treating people as people valuing humanity.

So whether the solution is French hours or allowing for micro breaks as they do with kids in preschool and beyond just considering the humanity in and around our craft is the next frontier in making successful products, sustainable products. The process matters. Anyway, I can’t wait to watch all of the shows that lies ahead as coming out as well as the ones where she’s helping to shape how we view women in the world.

As soon as she gets back from her epic adventures. All right, next week’s guest is Arnold Cardillo Arnold or Ernie is a three-time Grammy award winner. He’s received three ALA Odyssey awards, and he’s had several Audi awards, including for distinguished achievement in production. As a talented young baseball player, turned philosophy, major turned storyteller in the [02:04:00] audio book publishing space.

I wondered what his journey could inspire in the rest of us. He has had over 40 years experience in the audio book industry first as a sound editor and engineer leader for listening library, but he’s been involved in all aspects of the audio business. In 1997, Arnold and his wife, Debra started live Oak media, which is a children’s media publishing company.

I was curious to chat with Arnie about what he hears when he’s in the studio, what he looks for, how he collaborates with artists and engineers and what drives him to do things differently from other people in the industry. Why do people come back to him again and again? Why are their books so celebrated as creatives?

I think it’s interesting to explore storytelling from different lenses and chatting with Arnie was super interesting to unpack coming out of a month. When we focus on gratitude for Thanksgiving, I have been scanning [02:05:00] for things to be grateful for on the daily. And I’ve had some rough days in here. It’s not always easy on the path to better.

You know what I’m saying? The thing I keep coming back to is getting to make this show. I am so grateful to my team behind the scenes, Fiona Sue Amman, who started us off and L Shaw, who is producing the heck out of this season. And Amy Keating, who’s helping us out. I’ll Elle is on maternity leave Alison with her wisdom and counsel.

Also, we have amazing social media partners over at diesel Lauren, Alexis Oberto. We have an amazing editing team at on-off Jessica and Chad and shade, a wall and the rest of her PR team over at new house. This is a true group effort. I am so grateful for them all. And the encouragers who flipped the switch in me to do this Yogi, Ken, Christopher Lacy.[02:06:00] 

It’s really true though. When you start looking for what you’re grateful for, it just spills over everywhere. So back to you, our listeners, I am blown away hearing about the impact of this show, whether it’s on Twitter or Instagram or text messages and emails, and I’m having a blast putting these together and building this community with you means so much to me, I’m already thinking ahead to what we have in store, but before I get ahead of myself, thank you.

Thank you for listening and sharing these conversations until next week. Be well .