[00:00:00] Joe Towne: Hey, welcome back or welcome to The Better Podcast. I’m your host Joe Towne.

Today’s guest is Malcolm-Jamal Warner.

Two brief trigger warnings. There’s swearing in this episode, it’s becoming a theme. So if that is offensive, please keep that in mind. Also, I wanted to acknowledge that this show is about Malcolm’s journey and along the way, he shares stories about his time working on The Cosby Show.

He is on record in other conversations where he has been asked in depth about his relationship with Mr. Cosby and also his relationship to the show. That is not what this conversation focuses on. I couldn’t connect to his journey as an artist and hear about his artistic process and what he learned during his creative journey without it.

So if hearing the name, Cosby is a trigger for any of you just know that it permeates this episode. [00:01:00] Now back to our guest. Many of us grew up with Malcolm-Jamal Warner in his role as Theo Huxtable, which he performed for eight years. And for which he received an Emmy award nomination, maybe you know him from his many sitcoms from Michael J.

Fox has show to Malcolm and Eddie. He also appeared on single camera comedies like community he’s shown his range on suits, Dexter sons of anarchy and American crime story. The people versus OJ Simpson he’s appeared in off-Broadway shows and regional stages from victory garden to the arena and the LA Jolla Playhouse.

He’s now in his fifth season on Fox’s hit medical drama series, the resident he’s a seasoned director and a successful producer. He’s known for his spoken word, poetry winning a Grammy award in 2015 for the song Jesus, children. Robert Glasper his version of the Stevie wonder classic also featuring Lalah Hathaway [00:02:00] as a musician he’s performed in jazz festivals.

Like the Playboy jazz festival has opened for high profile artists, including the late Luther Vandross. And he recently performed at the historic Apollo theater. Let’s jump in to the conversation with Malcolm, Jamal Warner on cultivating intentionality and purpose.

Imagine for a moment that your life had a newspaper, what would the current headline 

[00:02:29] Malcolm Jamal Warner: say? Happiness is possible. 

[00:02:34] Joe Towne: I want to read this newspaper. Okay. If I double click on that article and 

[00:02:39] Malcolm Jamal Warner: the, the subtitle would be, life is what you make it. So 

[00:02:44] Joe Towne: what’s this article going to tell us 

[00:02:47] Malcolm Jamal Warner: not necessarily anything, uh, we’ve never heard before.

It’s not about what happens to you. It’s about how you respond to it. 

[00:02:56] Joe Towne: That’s the, what you make of it. Part of it, right? The first [00:03:00] part tease up, you’re feeling happy and it’s possible, which in some moments in our lives, we might forget, we might doubt, but, uh, that’s a really exciting thing. Yeah. 

[00:03:12] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. And, and, and that’s not coming from a 1000%.

Zen bliss place. Like it’s coming from, from a very real place of, uh, even having to at times, remind myself, you know, that it’s not about what happens, it’s about how you respond to it. You know? So like one thing I say pretty often now when people ask me how I’m doing, I say, I wake up in the morning feeling like I am living the dream.

And on the days I wake up and don’t feel like that I remind myself that I’m still living somebody street, [00:04:00] you know? So that, that, that, that just puts it all in perspective. 

[00:04:04] Joe Towne: Yeah. It sounds like it’s right off the top of the day. Like it frames the day. 

[00:04:08] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. And again, it’s not from a place of like, you know, I’m here, I live here all the time.

It’s a, it’s a place of a very real lived life of the ups and downs, the peaks and valleys, the, you know, just all of that. And, uh, just recognizing that, you know, that is part of life. That’s the ups and downs, the peaks and valleys, the highs and lows are always going to exist. So it’s really about how I choose to, you know, respond in those, in those, in those valleys, but also in those peaks.

[00:04:44] Joe Towne: Yeah. It feels like it grounds. But it also raises the valley. It feels purposeful and intentional, and it feels to me like attunement, like I’m tuning into this and I’m setting [00:05:00] this forth both as a reminder and a call 

[00:05:03] Malcolm Jamal Warner: each day. And it’s a daily practice. Like, you know, it’s like, I, I get it now. Now I understand why, uh, meditation is called a practice.

Why yoga is called a practice while Y Y uh, a medicine is called a practice. Why law is called the practice, but there’s, you have to keep, you have to keep honing those skills. You have to, to stay on top of it. You have to, you have to keep working out, you know, you gotta stay at a certain level. Um, and all of that going into the gym, all of that is a, it’s a practice man.

Like I’m 51, right? So I think, I think a lot of, a lot of my life, I used to always make this, make this declaimer, this disclaimer, look, I’m not trying to talk, like, I’m an authority figure on life. These are just my thoughts, but like I’m 51 years. So, so though I may [00:06:00] not call myself an authority figure on life, but like, I’m fucking 51.

So I don’t have to be apologetic about. Um, sharing my perspective, uh, on, on life or, or at least sharing, sharing my, uh, my path, uh, on how I move through life. I’m 51. So there’s some wisdom there. Yeah, 

[00:06:28] Joe Towne: I hear it. And I’m really appreciative of the claiming of that. You’ve come to this place. You know, you started off this conversation even before we started rolling.

And you taught me something about you, which is your first name is Malcolm Jamal. It’s not two names, not a first and a middle name. It’s Malcolm, Jamal. And what I’d love to start with in terms of how you came to this wisdom is the power of a name because you’re named [00:07:00] after two incredibly influential humans, right?

Malcolm X, and a modular mall. And maybe, you know, people have, uh, at least I hope, uh, passing, if not a deeper understanding of who Malcolm X was, but people may or may not know about legendary jazz pianist, Ahmad, Jamal, how do you think those two people. Have influenced the man that you’ve become 

[00:07:28] Malcolm Jamal Warner: sure it starts with my dad.

Right? So for most of my mother’s pregnancy, my name was going to be James Robert, uh, named after, um, my maternal and paternal Gran fathers. And in the 11th hour, my dad flipped the script and he said, no, it’s Malcolm and Jamal, I have to start with my dad. Cause my dad was very active in the civil rights movement.

My dad went to [00:08:00] Lincoln university, uh, with Gil Scott Heron, uh, and Brian Jackson. And my dad went to Lincoln university because Langston Hughes went to Lincoln university. So I came out of the womb, listening to Gil Scott Heron and the last poets, you know, my father, you know, very, very early on was, was just giving me, um, it was passing down teachings of Malcolm X.

Um, he was always, uh, playing jazz, like, like a lot of people think, you know, because of Cosby show him because Mr. Kazia was always so into jazz. That that was the influence. But no, it started before that my father was heavily into jazz. So just growing up, you know, obviously knowing about Malcolm X, but you know, Ahmad, Jamal being this renowned jazz pianist, but also, uh, known as very revolutionary.

In his walkthrough life and in his music. So, you know, [00:09:00] Malcolm X has a little bit more obvious of an influence, but you know, my Jamal with my Jamal would always, what always intrigued me was how, how you fit in a militancy in your music, in your jazz music. You know, so those, those have always been, uh, influences on me really from the onset.

And it wasn’t until I was about 15 years old, we were like two and a half seasons in on Cosby. You know, by this time, you know, Cosby, you know, was this freaking television phenomenon, a lot of my life, uh, you know, it was kind of, you know, I was able to role model and I, you know, I was a positive influence on kids and positive image now to go speak it, speak to kids at schools and churches and organizations and whatnot.

And then I guess just the, the significance of all of that landed on me one day. [00:10:00] And then I thought about my name and I remember calling my dad saying, dude, you set me up, you know, like, like I’m 15 and at 15, I got it. It was like, my father set me up, like what I’m doing. Um, in my life with my, you know, with my, you know, my career.

But before that it was like my, it wasn’t my art, you know, so what I’m doing in my art slash career, what I’m doing in terms of public speaking, um, and, and, and having this, this, this odd influence on, you know, my peers, um, like that just all clicked and was like, wow, I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing.

And now at 51, reflecting on that, um, discovery that apifany at 15 is pretty, pretty [00:11:00] significant. Yeah. 

[00:11:01] Joe Towne: Really is, you know, the thing about a module Jamal, and you’re talking about his militancy is hearing about how he trained, you know, how he learned about jazz. And he was invited to copy exactly what he heard and how he wove that into, uh, the style of improvisation that he would play as an adult and as a master.

And, um, I think it’s pretty special that if I can brag on you for a moment that the two of you share Grammy awards for your art and that the two of you also, uh, performed at the Kennedy center. 

[00:11:41] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. I’ll take that. 

[00:11:44] Joe Towne: And, you know, speaking of a name I’m just having. The mantle of that influenced the process that you and your wife went through in naming your own?

Well, I guess 

[00:11:57] Malcolm Jamal Warner: from, from the most obvious for me, [00:12:00] uh, as Malcolm, Jamal is, uh, my first name, my daughter also has, um, two names as her first name, but when we went into the hospital for labor, we finally whittled down. We had narrowed the choices down to six names,

and then by the time we left the hospital, by the time we got discharged five days later, uh, so for the first five days, our daughter was still called baby Warner of then when it was time for us leave the hospital, they were like, you know, you can name her. Now we put them on the birth certificate, or there’s a whole process.

That’s going to go into giving this on the birth certificate. So we were like, ah, so I think at that point we were down to three names, but you know, part of it was taking those five days to really like, hang out with her and look at her [00:13:00] and, you know, let her help us decide what her name was going to be.

And when we finally got down to the last two names, we just looked at her and we wrote. No, she’s the, she’s that name? Like that’s, that’s who she is. And now, you know, she’s four years old and oh one, we can’t even remember. I can’t remember those other five minutes. Um, and I look at her today and I’m like, yeah, that’s we named her exactly who she is.

[00:13:33] Joe Towne: Uh, a few things in there. One of them is you had to lay eyes on her and maybe meet her soul. And that helped inform how you chose. And the other thing is, you know, my parents were told something very similar in the hospital and both my mom and my dad wanted to name me after relatives. And there was a little bit of a disagreement.

So I was almost, you know, baby, my dad’s last name, maybe it wasn’t even that [00:14:00] maybe it was just like a baby DOE or something, but they were like, no, you have to decide in this hospital. And they chose the name for me, which, uh, became a source of at first, I didn’t know any better. I was too young. My parents split and I became, you know, a different person.

In my dad’s house when I would visit him from when I was with my mom and eventually my stepdad. And so I chose my name at five. I asked to be little Joe, and I really had this very strong connection with my stepfather. I certainly didn’t mean it as a insult to my biological dad. 

[00:14:45] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Name is Joe 

[00:14:46] Joe Towne: and my stepdad’s name is Joe town.

Wow. So I took his name at five and went through school all as Joe town. It wasn’t until I was a young actor in New York after college that I reclaimed Ariel my birth name and [00:15:00] started to make peace with it and really started healing. Some of what felt like a separation, but the power and the intention of a name.

When, when my wife and I were looking to name our son, we had this book and it was like written by a French psychoanalyst that talked about the personality types that come from certain names and thousands of studies. And we had circled like 14 and got it down to six. You know, we dealt with unsolicited advice from in-laws that were weighing in and, uh, that was such a journey.

[00:15:36] Malcolm Jamal Warner: So, so I have always wanted to ask you where Ariel came from. I think when I first saw your name Joseph or yo talents, I was like, that is such a dope name. For a male child, like, like, so our daughters, what we knew, um, what I knew my, my wife wanted [00:16:00] was for our daughter to have a gender neutral name. So from, you know, you have 14 minutes, your initial, I can’t remember our hour issue, but, you know, from there to the sixth to down to the one, all of those names, um, each choice as the two first names, the two names were the first name.

They were all, they’re both, they’re all gender neutral. So I remember the first time I saw, I saw Joseph Aereo was like, that’s such a really dope name for that for a dude. Like it’s dope. So I didn’t realize that that was actually your first name. Yeah. 

[00:16:35] Joe Towne: My parents knew that the name REL, which is not what they called me, they called being Ariel because of accents and New York.

But, um, Ariel was a significant role in the Tempest and Shakespeare was in Milton’s paradise. Lost is a Hebrew name for lion of God, which is a pretty big powerful mantle. [00:17:00] Sylvia Plath wrote a book of poetry called area, which my mom was very moved by. And I think for me, I grew up on long island, primarily in the late seventies, early eighties.

When the name Ariel was. Immediately put me into the role of other. Oh wow. And so I think for me, choosing Joe was allowing me to hide a bit from being different and being viewed as different. And the name Ariel in some ways means, um, you know, proud messenger and the name Joseph means bringer of hope.

And so I’d like to lean into those two meanings when I think about those two names together. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:17:45] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I hear that. That’s so funny. I’ve always wanted to ask you about that. That still. 

[00:17:50] Joe Towne: Yeah. So I think you and I share a bit of a similar circumstance in that, you know, our parents were [00:18:00] together. Um, your parents were together for a few years.

Uh, they got separated. I think you and your mom moved back to Los Angeles. Your dad went to Chicago, eventually divorced, but your, your parents did a couple of incredible things. First. They were being friends. Close friends and second, you and your dad stay deeply connected with summer visits and all that, but with he and you in between, and what I’m curious about is how, how do they maintain that connection with each other and your dad with you despite being physically separated?

[00:18:38] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Um, my, my, my dad gives my mother all the credit for that, uh, for their relationship. Well, um, I’m getting ready to ask you this question based on assumptions, or maybe, maybe I did ask her about it. And at 51, I just don’t remember what she said, but, but I guess I’m going [00:19:00] on the assumption that my mother understood the importance, my father being in my life.

I think they kind of, you know, as I got older, I discovered that my parents knew each other, uh, different phases. They knew each other as kids. They knew each other as teenagers. Um, and then they got together at as young adults, like, you know, 20, 21. So you’re still like, you’re still a teenager like teenager plus.

Um, so I think they already had an understanding that they had a relationship prior to being husband and wife. Um, and therefore there was space to have a relationship, a post being husband and wife. Uh, again, I’m going, this is my, you know, knowing, knowing what I know about my mother, this is my safe assumption, but I need to, you know, I need to revisit that conversation with her.

Um, but she, you [00:20:00] know, she stayed on my father, um, you know, and stayed on me, you know, about us, you know, uh, staying in touch. But I used to, you know, when I was a kid, I, you know, whenever I would get in trouble, I’d get in trouble by my mom. And then my mother would make me call my father and tell him what I did.

And my father, like his threat was Malcolm would do I need to get on the next plane to California and come out there. And that was all I needed from him. Like that threat set me straight. And then when I was about 12, I underst I was like, wait a minute. My father can’t afford to get on the next flight to come back.

But I love the fact that that threat worked for all of my, my childhood. And by the time I got, you know, my time, you know, and adolescent [00:21:00] at 12, I understood the sentiments, uh, behind it. And my parents, uh, both raised me in a way where I didn’t want to disappoint. So at 12, I understood my father can. And you know, he still said it cause at 12, I’m not going to say that you can’t , you can’t afford.

I still have enough respect for my father. I’m not going to say that. So at 12, what I understood was the sentiment behind that. So when he would say that to me, I understood the disappointment and I did not want to, um, like I spent a lot of my life not wanting to disappoint my parents. 

[00:21:44] Joe Towne: Yeah, I hear that.

And I, for me, my mom could sometimes sigh or raise an eyebrow and it felt like yelling in my ears. I definitely resonate with the idea of, um, not wanting to disappoint a parent. And what I really hear too, is that there was [00:22:00] an alignment, you know, they were in it together. They were in the relationship, no matter where they were or what their relationship status was.

So when you called he was backing her up and sometimes I think kids try to play their parents against each other. So the fact that they were in alignment, I think mattered, and it was a pretty good reminder of boundaries. I’m curious, what was the first big dream you remember 

[00:22:28] Malcolm Jamal Warner: having? I was six. I was like either six or seven misses before I never started acting class or any of that.

I, uh, made this declaration to my parents that I was either going to be a famous actor, a famous poet or a famous basketball player. Okay. Okay. 

[00:22:48] Joe Towne: So the dream was 

[00:22:51] Malcolm Jamal Warner: the Lakers. It was the Lakers. Yeah. And even before I started acting, uh, I used to play ball. I played ball for a league at Baldwin [00:23:00] Hills, but I was still.

Like, I love the basketball, but it was clear that that was not going to be my colleague. Uh,

and then I guess, you know, one season, one of your basketball season was over. I sound like 79 that’s when he was over at my mother’s free, whether it’s, my mother was always looking for things for me to do outside of just going to school and then coming home and playing with my friends. So a friend of her suggested this acting, uh, this community theater down in, in, in Inglewood, uh, in the mid right in the middle of, um, it was called the Inglewood Playhouse and it was right in the middle of Cintanilla park in Inglewood.

And, um, you know, her friend suggested that. So my mother asked me if I wanted to go down, I was like, sure. And I audition. And I got in, um, and I was like nine years old. And, um, as much as I love the basketball, I was clear that I w that that was not going to be my calling. Um, but I fell, I fell right [00:24:00] into the theater.

I fell right into the acting. I was like, this is it. Like, I like this. I really like this. So, you know, when, when I look back at that declaration, uh, in terms of being a famous actor in, uh, you know, semi famous poet, I’m like, okay, two out of three. It’s pretty good. 

[00:24:20] Joe Towne: It’s pretty good. Yeah. So you have this great story about your audition for the Cosby show.

And I’m wondering if you could walk us through that. It’s it’s good Friday. It’s 1984. You and your mom are out on an adventure. What happened? 

[00:24:38] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Well, you know, my mom, my mom has day off from work and you know, we go, we go to movies and we go like another 11 Google’s to an 11:00 AM movie. I don’t 

[00:24:45] Joe Towne: know. But that sounds amazing.

[00:24:48] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I’m like, mom, why are we going to us early? She was like, I don’t know, just so we can, you know, get everything done, you know, in the day that we want to do. Okay, fine. You know? Cool. We come home and it’s uh, [00:25:00] it’s I come around five o’clock and there are about four messages on my answering machine. Uh, I know I’m dating myself, uh, but it was an actual answering machine and we play the messages back.

And like, there were like four messages from my agents and I had this audition for the cosmic show. I think she probably started calling around like 12 or one. So now it’s like, it’s five o’clock and we’re like, oh wow. And you know, we call her back and she calls the casting and she convinces them to, you know, to wait for me.

So by the time I get there, it’s probably 6, 6 30, 2 motion, Jeff flack, they had already left. Um, and, uh, their, their, their receptionist was, you know, it was a. So, you know, they leave, but she, you know, she stays there and, you know, I, you know, I, I read with her and in the middle of, of our addition, our phones are ringing.

So like all it’s like, I’m so sorry. So all of [00:26:00] this is going on and I’m still in it. Like, you know, we’re doing it. And then she asked me to wait for a minute. And then she calls, uh, she calls Jeff ocean, you know, she’s like, you gotta come back, you gotta see this kid. So he comes back, you know, I do the audition with him.

And so mind you since, so now we’re talking seven o’clock on, on good Friday. And he tells me to come back on Monday. And, uh, you know, what, what I came to understand was the Monday was, was the network and studio callback. And they, so they, they had flown in someone, uh, an actor from New York and an actor from Chicago.

So they already knew they were flying those guys in. So I was literally the last person. They saw seven o’clock, Friday night and network and studio call backs are on Monday. Right. So I come, you know, come in and, and, and, and I see everybody like, you know, Lisa’s their [00:27:00] Tempest, the other two guys auditioning for, uh, for Theo and for, uh, Vanessa and for Rudy, because even at this point, they weren’t sure what the, uh, the makeup of the kids were going to be.

They were thinking, uh, cause this was before the five kids were just four kids. So they didn’t know if it was going to be, uh, three girls and a boy or two boys and two girls. So, uh, this is before, um, family matters, but Jillel white and Keisha Knight Pulliam were both up for. So that’s why Rudy’s name is Rudy.

Cause it was supposed to be a boy. Right. So, and then, uh, Vanessa, they had as van. So there were actually, uh, there were a couple of boys, there was a boy and a girl, um, up for, for Vanessa. Um, and there are these two other guys and it was crazy was the two other guys, the guy who was the other guy up for Theo and the other guy up for the Vanessa van part, they kind of looked alike.

Right. So they were going through the hallway, walking [00:28:00] next to each other, like the mind get, you know, the mind games that they play in Hollywood. Right. And these auditions. So they’re walking around the hallway together so people can go, oh, they, they can really be like brothers. Yeah. Yeah. So that you got that whole thing going on.

Um, you know, and then there’s a whole site game of, uh, you know, somebody comes out of the audition and they tell them to stick around. Right. So they come back to the audition like, ah, yeah. Ah, so, you know, I go in, I give my best shot. I basically, you know, repeat what I did on Friday to get me there. It’s the scene between field and, and cliff and I’m killing in the room, Joe, like, like I’m hitting all the beats, everybody’s laughing and smiling, like I’m killing and I finish and everybody’s smiling.

Everybody’s happy. Like, so it was very clear, you know, what’s just transpired and the only person not smiling. And he looks [00:29:00] at me and he says, would you really talk to your father like that? Because, you know, I was doing what I saw, you know, kids doing the television, you know, and then especially, you know, you know, kids are on television are precocious, right.

But then especially like the black kids until I was just so like, I’m, I’ve been watching Webster, you know, Emmanuel Lewis and Gary Coleman and Todd bridges. 

[00:29:29] Joe Towne: The first black person on TV may have been Broadway star Ethel waters who hosted a one-off variety show on NBC on June 14th, 1939, when television was still being developed, the medium evolved over the next decade as TVs became a household fixture, but roles for black actors did not with most being relegated to playing servants or providing comic relief.

Although sitcoms with primarily black characters have been present since the earliest days of network television. [00:30:00] This genre rose to prominence in the 1970s in 1980. In the early days of television, black actors were often cast in stereotypical roles. Often as comic clowns in a tradition tracing back to the genre of black minstrelsy popular in the early 20th century, the first television sit-com to portray black people, Amos and Andy was widely popular among diverse audiences.

After over 70 odd episodes had been broadcast. It was taken off the air after protests from specific groups, including the NAACP who alleged that the show engaged in stereotyping afterwards, there were no all-black sitcoms shown in the U S until the 1970. Ethel waters would make history in 1950 as the first African-American to star in a show Beulah, a sitcom about a maid, serving a bungling white family who got her employers that have scrapes in every episode.

But the show like it’s [00:31:00] contemporary Amos and Andy relied heavily on characatures of black actors for laughs waters soon left the show, marking the beginning of a struggle to have black lives and experiences portrayed in significant and accurate ways. Broadway star Diahann Carroll became the first African-American woman to receive an Emmy nomination in 1969.

For her role as a widowed middle-class nurse, raising a small son in the suburbs, her title role in Julia, for which he received the 1968 golden globe award for best actress in a television series was the first series on American television to star a black woman in a non-stereotypical role. Although the sitcom which largely avoided tackling social and racial topics was lambasted at the time by critics who said it did not reflect the lives of most black Americans.

Julia is now nevertheless considered groundbreaking in the 1970s. A series of popular black sitcoms appeared, [00:32:00] including good times, Sanford and son what’s happening. And the Jefferson. If Julia offered, what many saw as an aspirational version of black life? Good times set in the Chicago housing projects shown a light on the reality of many who were struggling to get by.

But at the heart of the show was the strong bond shared by the Evans family episodes showed how the family members stuck by each other in the face of unemployment, crime, racial bigotry, and loss, like the Jeffersons, Sanford and son, and all in the family. The show was created by legendary producer and writer, Norman Lear, who fought to get progressive sitcoms with diverse casts on the air.

It began as a spinoff of all in the family, but the Jeffersons ended up as the longest running TV show ever featuring a mostly black cast spanning 11 seasons. The Jeffersons also featured one of TV’s most memorable characters ever. George Jefferson [00:33:00] played by the incredible Sherman Helmsley who moved his family from Queens to a Manhattan high rise after building a successful dry cleaning business through George’s unapologetically, confrontational person.

The show offered sharp commentary on race issues. It was also the first to prominently feature, an interracial couple, according to Adrian Severo of UT Austin, moody school of communication. It wasn’t until the 1970s where you see television come to fruition, talking about real social issues. And particularly when it comes to black television shows in the seventies, sitcoms like Sanford and son, good times, and the Jeffersons look at black communities and do a better job of showing them in a realer light.

These are shows about families trying to run a business and trying to make ends meet these actors, had their lives threatened and put their lives on the line because they realized something larger than themselves. And [00:34:00] because of their sacrifices, we have the history of how we see and enjoy television today.

So in the late seventies you had different strokes starring Gary Coleman and Todd bridges. Then in 1983, came Webster starring Emmanuel Lewis, both of which were on the air. And both of which were embodying the tone and style of sitcom, acting that Malcolm is talking about when auditioning for the Cosby 

[00:34:25] Malcolm Jamal Warner: show.

So that’s what I’m expecting, you know, and clearly that’s what got me the call back. And that’s the very element that everybody in the room is laughing and loving. And Mr. Cosby is the one dude like, mm. Would you really talk to your father like that? And I said, no, he said what? I don’t want to see that on this show.

So he and Jay Sandra is the director. Like Jay was like, alright, Jamal, go back out. Um, no first ones. Cause he was like, uh, you, you, you go back to you, give me something different. [00:35:00] And then Jay, uh, Sandra is put it in a nicer tone. Um, and it was basically like, you know, go out, you know, and you know, we’ll give you some time and then come back and let’s try it again.

And fortunately, I went to the audition with my, my, my acting teacher at the time he was, you know, my mom was working, so my acting teacher drove me to the audition. So I had that, that advantage while everyone else is walking through the hallway, you know, playing the site game. I have my acting teacher with me.

So we’re in the hallway and we do, we do a total 180 degree turn and I go back in, I, you know, I, I do the scene again and I finish, I look up and Mr. Cosby says, that’s what I’m talking 

[00:35:44] Joe Towne: about. Beautiful. And I’m also hearing that the first pass you clearly hit all the jokes. Right? And you clearly show the writers.

You could breathe life into the story and hit punchlines and then putting the lid on it or whatever the adjustment was. It feels like you could [00:36:00] also take direction. Okay. So you moved to New York, you’re on the show for eight years. You have incredible mentors and colleagues and collaborators, and you’ve likened it to being in an Ivy league college in terms of training for your craft.

And at some point you expand your thinking beyond acting alone, you, and one of your cast mates discussed at that time. You wanted to be a triple threat. What did triple threat Stanford 

[00:36:28] Malcolm Jamal Warner: acting, writing and directing. Okay. Where am I been acting? Producing a director. Okay. 

[00:36:33] Joe Towne: Okay. Acting, producing, and directing.

So there’s a difference between wanting to do something and trusting that you can do something which most times proceeds other people believing we can do it. How did you come to know you could do? 

[00:36:50] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Correct. So now I was 13 when we shot the pilot and then you know, that fall, um, I turned 14. And remember when that show first hit it [00:37:00] out the box, it was this phenomenon.

No one was expecting the, the phenomenon that that show, you know, became, but at 14, and then I’ve told the story, you know, probably as much as I know, I’ve told the story about my audition, but at 14, my mother sat me down and said, listen, baby, it’s great that this show is the phenomenon that it is, but you know how this business is.

This show could be over next year. What are you going to do when this show is. She said I can type, I can always get a job cause she quit her job as a recession. So as, I don’t know, I don’t know if you know this, I’m sure your listeners don’t know this, but uh, we shot the pilot. We only got picked up for six episodes, right?

Mr. Cosby had two Cosby shows, uh, prior to this show that didn’t do well. Like in fact, when, when, when, when he and, uh, uh, [00:38:00] Marcy carseat and Tom Warner first pitched the show to ABC, ABC turned it down. That’s how it got to NBC. Right? So my mom quit her job as a receptionist at this oil company, because she at least wanted me to have on my resume that I did six shows with bill Cosby and she was not going to let me go to New York without her.

I was gonna go with somebody else. So she was like, I’m quitting my job. I’m gonna quit my job. I couldn’t always get a job. Let me go to New York with my son. So he can have one his resume. He did these six episodes with, with bill Cosby. So, you know, show airs, it’s this, this huge success. So my mom was like, I can type, I can always get a job.

What are you going to do when the show’s over? So every year of that show, we lived as if it was the last year, because we didn’t know, you know, the numbers were great. People would, you know, they were saying great [00:39:00] things, yada, yada, yada, but you never know. So. We never took it for granted, uh, that this show was going to, you know, be here next year.

So my mother impressed upon me, uh, you know, one thinking about life after Cosby. Um, and, and most importantly, thinking about longevity because she was always like, if you want longevity in this career, look at anyone who said longevity in this career, they’ve had, uh, ups and downs. They’ve had times when they were hot and they’ve had times when they are not, if you want longevity in this business, then you have to decide what you’re going to do during those times when you’re not hot.

So you’re not making desperate career choices. So my new joke, she’s telling me, he’s telling me this at 14 years old,

you know, so imagine I’m in, you know, I’m on this number one television show in the [00:40:00] world. I’m living in New York, which is a very different experience than being on a number one television show, living in Hollywood. So I am growing up on with, on this show. That’s, uh, uh, this, this, you know, huge global success.

And yet I’m still thinking of I’m obsessed. I’m maniacally obsessed with what am I going to do with my life when this show is. So after, you know, you know, two years or so of me and of us doing these press tours as the Cosby kids and me and Lisa always says, oh yeah, we’re going to be a triple threat. You know, you’re going to write direct ANAC yada yada, yada.

At some point I realized I haven’t been talking about directing, but let me see if there’s something I even want to do. If he even know how to do as a result, I spent all of my time when I wasn’t with my wasn’t in the scene, I wasn’t with my tutor. I was in the control booth with the director, doing what I [00:41:00] now know is shadowing.

Right. I spent, I spent my years doing that. And then at some point I took a friend of mine’s a eight millimeter camera and I went and shot like this little short film, right. It was like a, like a music video kind of short film. And. That turned out to be pretty cool.

[00:41:23] Joe Towne: Eight millimeter or standard eight millimeter film or regular eight is a type of film that’s used in film cameras. It’s the progenitor of most modern film stock. It gets its name from its width. Eight millimeters eight millimeter film is a motion picture film format developed by Eastman Kodak in the 1930s, and served as a less expensive replacement for the previous preferred stock.

16 millimeter film made popular during the great depression. It’s been one of the most popular sizes of film ever since. How can we know what eight millimeter film [00:42:00] looks like? Eight millimeter film has larger Sprocket holes, the square holes that help feed the film through projectors and cameras. And they’re placed closer to the edges of each frame.

Regular eight was sold in spools containing 16 millimeter film. However, the film had twice as many perforations on its edges and film pass through cameras twice on the first pass, the film was exposed along half its width. On the second, the film is flipped and exposed on the other side. When the film has developed the processor, cut it in half thus resulting in two lengths of eight millimeter film.

Since the eight millimeter was a quarter of the size of 16 millimeter, it reduced the amount of film necessary to achieve the same running time as 16 millimeter and the cost of processing by a factor of four, the cynic Kodak eight model 20 cost, $29 and 50 cents. The projector $22 and 50 cents, and a spool of film, $2 [00:43:00] and 50 cents.

Super eight millimeter film cameras were first manufactured in 1965 by Kodak for their newly introduced amateur film format, which replaced the standard eight millimeter film format. There was also a very successful feature film from JJ Abrams called super eight, which came out in 2011 and is not about the history of eight millimeter cameras, but it was a fun movie, nonetheless.

[00:43:25] Malcolm Jamal Warner: So then I put a budget together and hired a crew and got a 16 millimeter camera and shot another low short film, kind of like a little music video, short film. And at that point I understood, well, I love this, but I also understood how much I, how much I. Just from, you know, uh, shadowing and just being around it.

So that’s what really kicked off that passion for, uh, for directing. And that was the thing that kept me working in between acting gigs because the, [00:44:00] the, the other, the other thing that I understood from that conversation with my mother was the transition from being seen as child actor, to being taken seriously as adult actor might not necessarily be a smooth one.

So the directing was the thing that I was able to, to latch on to, uh, to keep me working in between acting gigs. So again, I, I at least had an active participation, uh, in the industry. Um, and I was, you know, setting myself up. So I would not have to make desperate acting choices while I’m being told no, uh, on all these auditions where I’ve got four and five callbacks.

[00:44:43] Joe Towne: Yes. Yes. I’m really hearing that you had this vision and it was cultivated around longevity. I’ve heard you say that the only way to have longevity is to keep your soul intact and does the doing of something bring you [00:45:00] joy? It feels like directing in part was part of that. It was cultivated by shadowing and mentoring and observing, and then putting it to the test, not once, but a couple of times.

And maybe you started to trust that you could do it. And then eventually you went on to direct five episodes of the Cosby show. You mentioned three things in the triple threat, acting, directing, and maybe producing or writing. We’re not sure in terms of producing, could you share what was read between the lines?

What kind of show were you trying to tell? 

[00:45:36] Malcolm Jamal Warner: So read between the lines also known as pre-Black ish was this show on bet and the show was pitched to Tracy and I, you know, as a, um, as an avenue to, uh, expand audience base because, you know, [00:46:00] Tracy and I both came with, you know, not just pedigree, but, uh, you know, uh, a pretty substantial audience.

So we were, you know, we were sold on this show that was going to be, uh, about, uh, two doctors. Uh, Tracy was a, uh, Tracy was attached to the show first. Right? So it was about basically about this, uh, psychologist who was married to, uh, an English professor. From NYU who quit his job at NYU, so he could teach online so he can stay home with the kids at three kids, a blended family.

So it was a great concept. And, and Tracy and I, you know, really loved the concept. Um, when I came in to do a chemistry read, we hit it off. We, you know, we, we loved each other. She, we were each other’s favorite parts about coming to work, uh, when we did that show. But you know, the [00:47:00] first thing we, you know, we had all kind of seemed to agree upon is that we were going to approach this show differently from the typical black sit-com approach.

And then, you know, the first thing that happened is they went out and they hired writers who know, worked on shows that had the typical black sitcom approach. So Tracy and I have found ourselves in a position because we were both producers on the show. We found ourselves in a position where we were trying to, the show we were trying to produce was different from the show they were trying to produce.

So from the onset, we never really had an opportunity. We never agreed. And therefore never had an opportunity to be on the same page with what the show was supposed to be. And then, you know, Tracy, uh, we got picked up for a second season, [00:48:00] but Tracy got out of her contract because she was supposed to do another show that didn’t work out.

And when that show didn’t work out, we were already so far in development of the second season that they were like, well, this train has left without you. And then I think a year later Blackish came on and she is now seeing Anthony are now killing the fucking day. That’s great, 

[00:48:29] Joe Towne: man. You know, I think about it.

It seems like it prepped her for that show. And you know, what I’m hearing is a misalignment again, between what show are we trying to make? I know in sports, if the coach, the GM and the team owners are not in alignment, things eventually fall apart. What I’m curious to know is like, what does it feel like when you’re out of alignment with other collaborators?

I mean, you mentioned that it was a similar situation in terms of [00:49:00] what happened with read between the lines is what happened on Malcolm and Eddie. How does it feel like when you’re out of alignment with your collaborators, 

[00:49:07] Malcolm Jamal Warner: it’s. Very much like it is. It’s like when you’re in a relationship when you’re in a relationship and you and your partner are not in alignment, you know, those are situations where, you know, I’ve loved, you know, this is, this is my art, this is my craft.

This is my passion. When your craft becomes your career, then inherently, there are things that come with the territory, a career that can often get in the way of the passion. So it’s like being in a relationship with someone who you really love and you really, truly adore, and you really want to make work and you have the best intentions and hope that it’s going to work.[00:50:00] 

And then it just doesn’t. And you, you know, at some point, uh, the relationship itself, either implodes or you get, you get so weary that you have to leave and I’ve had television shows like that and, and relationships like that. And just, even as I talk about it, just the, the heartbreak of those shows, you know, and those relationships like I’m having like a, I’m honestly having a visceral, uh, you know, physical response.

It sucks, man,

[00:50:41] Joe Towne: no matter how bad your heart is broken, the world, doesn’t stop for your grief. Faraz Kasi heartbreak physically affects our autonomic nervous system, ans hormone regulation and immune system, which explains why our chest physically hurts or we experience [00:51:00] loss of breath, a stomach ache or fatigue. When we have a broken heart, Stephen King says hearts can break.

Yes, hearts can break. Sometimes I think it would be better if we died when they did, but we don’t. So what’s going on inside of us during heartbreak, dopamine and oxytocin in particular are hormones, which make us feel good and want to repeat behaviors and are released at elevated levels. When we’re in love.

Then when heartbreak happens, these hormone levels drop and are replaced with the stress hormone. The brain processes, the emotional pain of heartbreak in the same way. It does physical pain. Federico Cine says with time the pain eases the body recovers and the brain figures out new ways to go on another take on the pain we feel is the simultaneous hormonal triggering of the sympathetic activation system.

Those commonly referred to as fight or flight stress that ramps up heart and [00:52:00] lung action and the parasympathetic activation system known as the rest and digest response, which slows the heart rate down and is tied to the social engagement system in effect. Then it could be as if the heart’s accelerator and brakes are pushed simultaneously.

And those conflicting actions create the sensation of heartbreak. Tupac says you can spend minutes, hours, days, weeks, or even months over analyzing a situation, trying to put the pieces together, justifying what could have would have happened. Or you can just leave the pieces in the floor and move on.

When stressed we create cortisol, which can create various physiological symptoms. It can send blood to major muscle groups and give us a stiff neck or headache. It also diverts blood away from our digestive system, which can give us tummy troubles. The steady stream of cortisol may cause sleep issues and also lowers our immune system, which can make us more vulnerable [00:53:00] to bugs.

I’m here. The visceral experience of that heartbreak. And, you know, I’m thinking about this sports psychologist who says that the only motivator of change is pain, that pain can be discomfort, it can be embarrassment, but one of the beautiful things that you’ve shared came about from your time on Malcolm and Eddie is the cultivation of a hobby, something that was disconnected from your work as an actor.

So you picked up an instrument and I’m curious to know what was the purpose of its presence in your life at that time? 

[00:53:43] Malcolm Jamal Warner: So I I’d come up with eight years of Cosby, right? A few years before Malcolm and Navy might’ve been three or four years, but you know, my, my, you know, my, my now world renowned television experience, uh, was, you know, had been in cultivated in [00:54:00] this, this environment where Mr.

Cosby made everyone ultra aware of the images of people, of color that we were putting across the airwaves. Um, and, uh, I left that environment to go do a show for UPN, which, um, once again, I was sold on, uh, that we were going to do a different approach to, uh, Black coat black sit-com. So they wanted to do, uh, you know, is that way Morris, they had this holding deal with Eddie Griffin and somebody came up with this bright idea.

Let’s do a nineties urban version of the odd couple. And from, you know, we seem to be from our initial meetings on the same page of, we were not looking to perpetuate the negative stereotypes of black people in black comedy. And I come from, I come [00:55:00] from a place where it was very clear that I came from a place where we made history, showing that black people can be funny without being stereotypical.

So part of my thing was like, oh wow. If this is what Europeans programming is, but they know what my experience is. So therefore, so this is a great opportunity for me to come to UPN and bring my experience. Um, and I got to UPN and realized they didn’t really care about my experience because they had an audience.

They already had a certain marketing plan in place, and this is what their agenda was. And I found that out early on because it’s first season, I’m coming to work. And literally every day I’m fighting writers, producers through your network, fellow actor and viewing public. So at some point I started to feel like Don.

Because I realize the machine that I’m fighting is way too [00:56:00] massive for me to fight on my own, that huge fight. So the only thing I could really do is take control of what I have control of and within these scripts and within the context of my character and my brand, I have to work on protecting that.

So here’s a huge life lesson growing up before, you know, before act, before acting and you know, my mom and I lived in, uh, you know, it used to be called the jungle adjacent to south central and just below Baldwin Hills, it was, you know, heavy blood area. It was Santa Barbara Boulevard before it was king Boulevard.

Um, so it was the hood and it was called the jungle

[00:56:47] Joe Towne: Baldwin village. AKA the jungle is a neighborhood in the south Los Angeles region of Los Angeles county, California. It’s a neighborhood of about 50,000 people wedged between Baldwin Hills [00:57:00] and the Crenshaw area. Baldwin village was developed in the early 1940s and fifties by architect, Clarence Stein as an apartment complex for young families, Baldwin village is occasionally called the jungle by locals because of the tropical trees and foliage, such as palms, banana trees and begonias that once thrived amongst the areas, tropical style post-war apartment buildings, some of the buildings like the Tahiti or the Tiara suggests tropical luxury, youth gangs and drugs swept into the neighborhood.

In the early 1970s, it’s been the backdrop for several movies, such as white men. Can’t jump starting Woody Harrelson in Wesley Snipes. The neighborhood also appears in the film training day with Denzel Washington and the TV show Southland and blink. If you miss it in the video for hardened to paint by Waka Flocka.

The LA city council changed the name in 1990 after [00:58:00] residents raised concerns that it reinforced the neighborhoods image as a wild and menacing place, officially renamed Baldwin village. The new name reflects neighboring Baldwin Hills, former NBA star magic Johnson and others have begun revitalization plans for the area.

Contrary to popular opinion. The area is not the specific subject for guns and roses. Classic. Welcome to the jungle. 

[00:58:25] Malcolm Jamal Warner: And my mother, when I was a kid used to say, listen, we live here in the jungle, but we are not of the junk. So, you know, as a kid, she, you know, embedded in my mind this concept of not being confined to my physical space, she was, you know, she was a person who always wanted more.

So she taught me to always want more. So here I am, as a, as a kid learning how to navigate and survive in my [00:59:00] neighborhood without succumbing to the trappings of my neighborhood. So when I got Cosby at 13 and I had to move to New York, so I say it often that Cosby saved me in more ways than one, because at 13, at that point where you’re, you’re kind of on the fence and yet you have, you know, your mother.

You know, raising and fear of your mother and father, but then there’s also the fear of these cats on the street that you got to, you know, you gotta face when you’re walking home from school. So at 13, you know, booking Cosby, it plucked me out of that situation. Right? I say that to say, here I am now Malcolm Manetti at UPN.

And now having the navigate through what this formula that’s already been set up. So how do I navigate through this, but still protect myself and my brand and my craft. So through all of that, uh, I also figured that [01:00:00] I need something else that has nothing to do with acting and directing, because I felt like I was the only person at the end of the day.

I was the only person caring about this show as much as I was caring about it. And it was depressing me and I was becoming miserable. So I said, let me pick up a hobby. Let me pick up, let me pick up an instrument. Because if I pick up an instrument, at least it has nothing to do with acting, which started out as a hobby, became a career.

It has nothing to do with directly. That started as a hobby became a career. Uh, music would be something that will remain purely a hobby. I’m never going to start a band. I’m never going to be one of these corny actor, dudes who decide to do music. I’ll just, you know, have this base and our practice scales to a metronome in my dressing room to keep my mind occupied.

It 

[01:00:49] Joe Towne: sounds like an active meditation, right? Like I’m doing this to put my mind onto something it’s disconnected from results. It’s something I can control.[01:01:00] 

active meditation is a style that advocates movement followed by silence. That movement could be something like yoga followed by Shavasana or seated meditation. It could be running or dance or repetitive physical action, like a Korea or a mantra practice where you say a short phrase over and over. It could even be where we pour our heart out and ask for guidance or write a letter or do a brain dump.

But then after all the activity, we switch focuses to the silence and just listen, there is no limit to what constitutes an active meditation. We can practice walking. Fully connected to each step in the sensations inside or the environment outside that we’re in. Maybe we go for a rigorous hike somewhere.

Beautiful, go surfing, [01:02:00] do a dance party or gardening putting our hands in dirt or Tai Chi, maybe it’s cooking, coloring, whether we’re making them in Mandalah or using crayons or colored pencils, it could be working on a puzzle or even doing the dishes, which for me is a kind of meditation doing followed by being inhaling, followed by exhaling yang, followed by yin.

What kind of active meditations are you into? 

[01:02:31] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah, that was the intent. But if you ask anyone who picks up an instrument at 26 years old and just practices scales to a metronome in their dressing room, it doesn’t quite work. It doesn’t hold your interest. Like this sucks. So I ended up, I ended up throwing, throwing like jam sessions at my house and just like, you know, if I didn’t cast and just, you know, playing and learning from cats [01:03:00] and you know, it was one hiatus.

I, uh, you know, I had three months off, so I took this 10 week, uh, music intensive at musicians Institute. Um, I had been playing bass for a year and a half maybe. And. Know, I went to MIT. I was, I was so way in over my head, but I was like, okay, well, this is all information that I can keep and I’ll figure it out.

Like I took this, this, this jazz improv course, uh, with, uh, uh, renowned based teacher and musician, uh, Todd Johnson. And he even told me he was like, Malcolm you’re you’re in way above your head. I’m not saying, I’m not saying, you know, drop my class, but just once, you know, you’re in way over your head. And he was right and it took me three or four years after being at BMI.

And I had already started a band. I’m doing shows, but it took me like three or four years to really absorb all the information or to absorb what I [01:04:00] absorbed from his class. I still haven’t absorbed all the information, but I still have, uh, I still have the main book that I was working with in that class.

[01:04:08] Joe Towne: That’s beautiful that you took that on and it seems like it led yet to another creative outlet because you are an artist, no matter what, you’re practicing your artistry through. I would love to talk for a moment about identity. You’ve had some iconic roles, right? American crime story, community, friends, and therapy, most notably, perhaps as theater Huxtable.

Okay. On this show, you got to play a character that you hadn’t seen on screen before. The show is incredibly successful and influential, and many people have shared that the show helped raise them. How do you decouple yourself from the identity of that? Like as a human, as an artist? 

[01:04:59] Malcolm Jamal Warner: [01:05:00] Well, so what’s interesting is I, so I am it’s, it sounds so surreal.

I know, but, uh, I am also one of those people who grew up watching the Cosby show. Right? I know it’s weird to say, but having, you know, prior to Cosby, you know, been a television of you. I was a kid. I mean, I watched Sanford and son, I watched the Jeffersons, I watch a Webster, I watched different strokes. I watched these shows, but I never really related to those shows.

I watched those shows because they were the only shows I could watch that had black people. And even when, even when I, you know, reflect upon that time. And it makes so much sense now as an adult, the only show that I really, really loved, and it wasn’t a black show per se, [01:06:00] but it was Benson. It was Robert

It was, you know, I mean, he was the Butler on soap, you know,

but there was just, there was a dignity that he carried and the humor of that show and his humor was not predicated upon being black. And it wasn’t until I, you know, was older and was, and was, was experiencing Cosby as an actor. And as a viewer, when I got older, I realized that what never resonated with me on, you know, those black classic sitcoms was as comfortable and as much as you know, you know, that I own being black would always got lost on me, was that the humor [01:07:00] predicated on being black.

So I didn’t really understand until doing Cosby. And here I am on the show that is very black, black, black, black, black, black, black, without having to act the black. So here, you know, you know, here I am in a situation where, you know, talk about misalignment, um, and him and NBC finally got on board because they had to.

NBC saw this show as a sit-com about an upper middle class black family. Whereas Mr. Cosby considered the show about an upper upper middle class family that happened to be black. So though it sounds like semantics, they are, there were completely different approaches. So what I was really able to appreciate about Cosby, [01:08:00] you know, as a participant, but especially as a viewer was like, here’s the show that is funny and genuine, but it’s not predicated upon being black.

I guess that’s a long way of saying that. So I’ve always, you know, there’s always, there is a never ending pride, uh, or ever an eternal pride that all of us have, uh, having been a part of that show. But so even then I was very clear that Malcolm and feel we’re two different people. So even as a kid signing autographs and people wanted me to sign feel, I would never sign Theo.

Cause I was like, Thea was not who I am and there’s going to be more to my, uh, career and life than. So you, you, you will never see, you almost say never committed maybe at 14, I did it once or twice, but you aren’t going to see autographs that say Malcolm’s from Warner fields. I just would not do [01:09:00] it. Um, so the feel for me has never been my identity crisis.

Uh, it’s been the thing for everyone else because of the popularity of that show and the lovability of Theo, what have you, uh, for most of my life, um, and probably for some people for the rest of my life feel was going to be the thing that they associate, uh, with me, whatever role I play. Um, and my whole, my whole career, since then, I’ve always been, um, you know, I spent a lot of work getting feel and that sitcom energy out of my work.

Whereas now I’m on, you know, now doing the resident, the resident is really like what the resident. I finally feel like I have gotten the handle on my craft that I’ve been [01:10:00] chasing ever since Cosby. So finally, like people tell me all the time they see the resident look at the resident and like they finally don’t see feel anymore.

That’s the greatest compliment anyone 

[01:10:17] Joe Towne: should ever do. I hear that? Yeah. There’s, there’s a few layers in there that I’m hearing. One of them is the incredible reverence that you have still and had during the experience of creating that role and that you kept it very purposely separate in your mind. So you, weren’t going to go down the trap that some athletes go through where there’s this concept called identity, foreclosure.

This idea that like I’m told from a young age, I’m really good at something. Let’s say I’m an amazing soccer player. I play for 15 years. Most of my youth that I get injured. Now, I don’t know who 

[01:10:55] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I am.

[01:10:59] Joe Towne: [01:11:00] Eric Erickson was a psychologist or stage theorist who developed one of the most popular and influential theories of development. He built upon the work of Sigmund Freud around ego and identity during each of Erikson’s eight developmental stages, two conflicting ideas must be resolved successfully in order for a person to become a confident contributing member of society.

Failure to master these tasks leads to feelings of inequity. According to Erickson and adolescent’s main task is developing a sense of self adolescents, struggle with questions such as who am I and what do I want to do with my life along the way, most adolescents try on many different selves to see which ones fit.

They explore various roles and ideas, set goals, and attempt to discover their adult selves. James E Marsia is a clinical and developmental psychologist who grew up practicing tennis, [01:12:00] drama, speech and music. James Marsia is another influential theorist who expanded upon Erickson’s concept of identity, crisis, and identity confusion.

While Marsia primarily focused on the late adolescent years. His theory is applicable to later adulthood like 19 to 35 when identity crises may reoccur. So what is foreclosure? According to James Martin? The foreclosure status is when a commitment is made without exploring alternatives. Often these commitments are based on parental ideas and beliefs that are accepted.

Without question identity. Foreclosure is a psychological term that describes one of the key steps. Young people experience in the process of finding a sense of self at this stage. Adolescents may adopt different traits and qualities from friends and relatives, but have not yet settled on their own. So what happens when a child or teenager develops an athletic identity?

For instance, I am a baseball. [01:13:00] Or I am a tennis player to the exclusion of all else. There are positive effects associated with children, displaying an athletic identity children that associate themselves with a sports team or as an athlete that plays for a team are displaying healthy behaviors that are part of the process of building a personal identity.

According to sports psychologists doing so contributes to confidence and healthy self-esteem sports psychologist. Dr. Chris Stankovich writes this for athletes though. There is a potentially dangerous identity status that can lead to future unforeseen problems like going through an identity foreclosure status, where they prematurely and exclusively only see themselves as athletes.

When a person forecloses their identity problems can develop since all other life development and exploration is suspended in light of the one single identity role. What happens when our whole identity is athlete actor, and then what happens if we get injured, or if we decide [01:14:00] to leave that industry and enter another one who are we, then we may lose confidence or experience feelings of helplessness in an article in Harvard business review psychologist, Jenna curettes wrote that individuals who identify too closely to their career are vulnerable to having an identity crisis.

If they burn out, get laid off or retire, not to mention the stress along the way. If our identity is wrapped up in what we do, our identity is literally on the line. Every time we step up to the. Or go into the audition room or step onto set people in this situation can often suffer from anxiety and depression.

So what can we do? Cultivate different interests and friendships outside of our own bubble exposure to different ideas may help us understand who we are as individuals. We can incorporate healthy practices into our daily lives so that we can function mentally without our craft. Lastly, we can prioritize time away.

Professional fencer, [01:15:00] Sophia Kovacs has said, when you don’t achieve what you want at a sports competition, it takes a toll on you mentally. There are definitely feelings of doubt, but after a couple of days off, that goes away. And when I get back to training, I rediscover why I’m doing it. So I’m hearing that you really kept it separate in your own mind, you knew that you were stepping into a role, and also that you’ve been working to cultivate new imagery in terms of the perception of you and the public space as an artist.

And it seems like, um, this role is really the embodiment of that. One of the things that I’ve been really curious about is how do we navigate a bad interview? So you come into an interview, you have something perhaps that you’re promoting, right? Like music, a show, whatever you have to deal with questions that are too general, or perhaps they’re asking something that lets, you know, they didn’t put any time in or.

Maybe they ask [01:16:00] something, that’s an unpleasant surprise. Someone asked you a question, your insides might be on fire. How do you deal with that? Because you come across as masterful at navigating interviews like you, I admire so much seeing the vast scope of interviews you’ve had to do, whether it’s a fun piece or whether somebody goes someplace that’s really uncomfortable for even the viewer to watch.

And I’m really moved by Marshawn Lynch and how he decided to handle when he was done with a certain type of question. I really admire Naomi Osaka, taking the power back and saying, if you’re going to ask these kinds of questions, I’m going to opt out. You don’t seem like you can opt out of some situations and yet you seem masterful and navigating them.

[01:16:50] Malcolm Jamal Warner: That’s funny one. Thank you too. I think that comes with, so even though I don’t necessarily have [01:17:00] a definitive answer, uh, for the, your specific question, I will say that what has happened for me in, you know, these last, uh, many years of my life is being more comfortable in my skin and having, um, though.

I’ve always had a really solid sense of self. There’s been another, uh, another level, a deeper level of that sense of self. And, and it’s tricky, especially when you’re young, when you’re a young person in this business and you’re a kid and you’re navigating this adult world and, you know, you want to please, right.

Like, I think, I think part of my, as a kid being able to take [01:18:00] direction so well. Yeah. I think, I think a lot part of that stemmed from me being eager to please, right. So I think I’ve spent a lot of my life, again, even with a strong sense of self still that, that wanting to please. And I think for me, you know, having gotten to a certain age in my mid forties and I’m 51.

So even, I’d even say my mid to late forties, you know, I’m finding myself in a place where I’m not as concerned and definitely not as consumed with what people think about me. And I think, you know, and I think also in interviews, you know, and by people you get burned enough that you realize that caring so much, it’s really a waste of energy because people are going to interpret whatever you say.

And however you are to fit whatever. Preconceived story. They already have. [01:19:00] I think where I am now coming from that foundation that I’m, I, I don’t shy away from questions because I’m always interested in and still trying to have, you know, uh, at least a semblance of a meaningful dialogue, but I think I’m also in a place where I just, you know, I know what my boundaries are right now.

My daughter’s four. So give me like four or six years it might come in. 

[01:19:29] Joe Towne: Yeah. So, um, I’m hearing a few things in there. One of them is an authenticity and being comfortable in your skin and also an awareness of your boundaries. You know, the thing that I’m curious about is in these moments, it feels like if we get surprised by whatever a question, something in any conversation we’re having, there’s a moment where that fight or flight gets activated.

But what I wasn’t aware of is that there’s actually two other options. [01:20:00] So we always hear about fight or flight. We don’t often hear about freeze, although that’s much more common now. And then the newest one that I become made aware of is Fon.

While out for a walk, a dog jumps onto your path and begins barking at you. You’re driving on the highway, the car in front of you suddenly stops and you slam on the brakes. It’s your turn to present in front of a big crowd. These are examples that trigger the fight or flight response. Also known as the acute stress response.

This response is the body’s natural physiological reaction to stress or perceived threat. It ignites the sympathetic nervous system and releases hormones, which prepare the body to do what comes next. The term fight or flight is our ingrained survival instinct. The term was coined by American physiologist, Walter Kennan, who realized that an unconscious and automatic series of fast acting reactions occurred inside the.[01:21:00] 

Ideally to help us assemble resources. We need to manage the challenges we’re facing. Our ancient ancestors might come face to face with a hungry saber tooth tiger. Nowadays, we’re still hardwired to deal with that threat, but nowadays the saber tooth tiger may be a job interview or dealing with Instagram.

The reaction begins in the amygdala, the section of your brain, responsible for fear. The amygdala responds by transmitting signals to the hypothalamus stimulating the autonomic nervous system. Since everyone’s bodies are unique, the specific physiological reactions can vary depending upon how one usually responds to stress.

Understandably, after you perceive the danger is gone, it can take between 20 and 60 minutes before your body is at a normal state. Once again, the stress response occurs when the demands of the environment are greater than our perceived ability to cope with them. In the year. Since Kennan’s research, we have come to a deeper understanding that [01:22:00] expands on how people react to threats the options.

Now not only include fight or flight, but have expanded to include two other responses, freeze and fawn. So fight facing any perceived threat aggressively in fight. We tense our jaws or grind our teeth. We may experience intense anger. Maybe we want to punch something or something. Or stomp and kick our feet.

We may glare at people, attack the source of the danger, or perhaps we cry and our stomachs end up in nuts. We are in fight. Whereas flight is running away from the danger in flight. We may find ourselves feeling fidgety, unable to stop moving our legs, feet and arms. We may exercise excessively. Our extremities may go numb.

Our eyes dart about we are in flight freeze is being unable to move or act against a threat. When we freeze, we could feel pretty numb. [01:23:00] Maybe our skin goes pale. We may have allowed pounding heart or sense of dread. Maybe we just feel like we are tolerating the stress. This is freeze and finally fun, which means immediately acting to try to please to avoid any conflict.

The Fon response is typically prominent in people who grew up in abusive families or situations. If you had narcissistic parents, the only hope of survival would probably be agreement and helpfulness over time. You can recognize this by realizing that regardless of how poorly a person treats you, you are more concerned with making them happy and taking care of yourself.

Ultimately, it’s when we prime our bodies and minds for action, that the stress we generate can be useful, which in turn can help be the fuel we need to effectively deal with whatever is impacting. So two Fon is basically to try and please, and as a recovering people pleaser, um, [01:24:00] that’s one that I definitely resonate with.

You know, you’ve been a writer, your whole life, you’ve creative writing poetry. What I’m curious about is what are you trying to say with your poetry? Is it, it feels like something has changed. Like I love my woman and I ain’t scared. That’s got a vibe, right? We are master magicians and comfort food. Even the words you received a Grammy for, right.

And Jesus, children of America, what are you, what 

[01:24:33] Malcolm Jamal Warner: are you trying to say? So I, I have three, I have three albums out, right. And I’m, feverously trying to finish this fourth, uh, album. Um, my second album was called love and other social issues. Right? Love it. Other social issues. And I think that kind of embodies, you know, my poetry, the current tint, ironically enough, I used to write.

So I was always known for [01:25:00] writing love stories, and then writing social consciousness, poems. Right. I think since I’ve been with my wife, we’ve been together six years. I don’t write love poems. As often as I used to 

[01:25:16] Joe Towne: you’re living it, you’re living the life 

[01:25:20] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I’m living. And what I realized is it’s much easier to write love poems now when you’re not loved.

Cause I think I was in love and some of those, you know, I was in relationships where I was fully hidden, but it’s just different. Like I think you, you know, let me speak personally. I think in the past have always written these love poems in, in, in the context of the ma the man, I want to be in relationships, whereas now I’m actually living the life of the man that I’ve always wanted to [01:26:00] be in a relationship.

So because I’m living it and I’m in the midst of, I don’t know, I’ve just, the writing process is just different and maybe, you know, part of it is. Before writing these things cause they were special. And I was trying to present this thing, whereas now not that it’s not special, but I’m not, I’m not trying to present anything I’m living it.

And because it’s a day-to-day I know it’s gonna sound crazy Courtney, but because it’s a day to day paradise, right. Writing about it is almost too personal. If that makes sense. Like, you know, like th there’s so much that I, you know, anyone who looks at my social media, I only [01:27:00] share, but so much about my wife and my daughter.

Like you don’t see pictures of them, you know, I don’t say their names. So there’s a certain privacy that I’m trying to keep around in my private life for as long as I can. Like, it’s easy now because my daughter’s for, you know, another, you know, six to eight years, you know, there’s only so much of that I’m going to control, be able to control.

I mean, hopefully she won’t be, you know, who knows what social media will be like in 10 years. Right. So I’m, you know, I’m hoping that that’s not going to be her focus in life, uh, as it is with, you know, with. Social media world now. So there’s so much that I keep close to my chest anyway, that I just I’ve, I’ve not been able to find the pathway to write about the paradise that I’m living, which as somewhat, I, you know, at some point it’ll, it will come out, but it’s not like, [01:28:00] you know, and again, I call it, I call it a paradise, not from this utopian rose colored glasses, you know, top of the mountain, you know, everything is a thousand percent lovely is a huge percentage of loving this though.

Like, don’t get me, you know, 

[01:28:23] Joe Towne: like I get it, it goes back to the newspaper headline, right? Like you have a depth of humanity about you and your family, and you’re choosing the way that you frame your days and what you set out to do your days. And that intentionality can’t help, but be thriving in the relationship.

And so it feels like if the love poetry is what is being embodied and lived and explored, and maybe with some perspective, it’ll come back around, it feels like other social issues feels like the main focus. Right 

[01:28:55] Malcolm Jamal Warner: at 51 on one hand, I feel like [01:29:00] this, you know, this old guy, but you know, the, the flip side of it is fifties are much hipper than they were 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, you know?

And I think hip hop may have a lot to do with that or whatever, but, but there’s, there’s part of me that that’s disingenuous there for like an old guy. Um, I feel like I have reached the point where now more than the responsibility, I felt, you know, as a younger artist, even more so now I feel a responsibility to address the social 

[01:29:43] Joe Towne: issue.

Yeah. Yeah. I’m also hearing that, you know, you, I think you said another time hip hop at this point is undeniable, right? It’s impact on every form of music. And I’m really hearing that you’re writing about [01:30:00] social issues are also undeniable in this world that we’re in, in the world that you’re living with regards to, I’m not trying to prove myself in relationship.

I’m standing in this. Yeah. It’s, it’s listening to your words is deeply impactful and it’s incredibly beautiful. Thank you, you know? Okay. Can we have some fun here for a little bit? Okay. Here’s what I mean by fun. This is a, I’m curious to do a little bit of a lightning round, like first thought that comes to mind.

So if I say don’t bump the table 

[01:30:40] Malcolm Jamal Warner: to, to all the,

[01:30:46] Joe Towne: okay. Curious to know best on-screen kiss, 

[01:30:51] Malcolm Jamal Warner: you know, I haven’t had a, I have not had a ton of screen kisses. 

[01:30:59] Joe Towne: [01:31:00] Okay. Fair. 

[01:31:02] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. Uh, but I would I’d I’d have to put, I would have to say, uh, my scenes on the resident with, uh, with Shanette Renee Wilson before she left the show. 

[01:31:17] Joe Towne: Okay. Yeah. That chemistry that’s exciting.

I will say you probably, I don’t know she’s listening, but you probably broke a vet. Nicole Brown’s heart. Because when she was asked that question, you were her answer. Um, 

[01:31:34] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I didn’t have to kiss longer. 

[01:31:37] Joe Towne: Fair, fair enough. Yeah, you can get an, a little bit more. Okay. How about matching Halloween costumes?

That’s us every Halloween. I mean, you’re on team matching Halloween costumes. We’re on team matching Christmas and now Valentine. So I was so appreciative knowing that you’ve done elephant giraffe and yeah. 

[01:31:59] Malcolm Jamal Warner: [01:32:00] Yeah. Skunk. We discussed skunk elephant, uh, pumpkin family, ghost family this year draft family.

[01:32:09] Joe Towne: Okay, great. I love that. Speaking of pumpkin, Thanksgiving’s on the horizon. Pumpkin pie versus sweet potato. I 

[01:32:17] Malcolm Jamal Warner: meet her. My mother makes a sweet potato cheese cake that will kick in. He deserves as say 

[01:32:26] Joe Towne: more sweet potato cheesecake. I need this recipe. I want to make it, I want to eat it. That sounds incredible.

[01:32:34] Malcolm Jamal Warner: She soaks the sweet potatoes in this rum called strolls. Okay. Stroh’s rum. You can’t get everywhere. Uh, I know that a stuttery is in California, but the, uh, you know, that, that restaurant, is it, uh, Oceana it’s it’s it’s it’s in Santa [01:33:00] Monica is right, right on main. Yes. So on the corner. I want to say it’s called ocean ocean.

I think you may know, right? Yeah. I remember what that back and back, you know, eons ago when I used to drink, uh, 1 51, like water, I wonder Roman Coke and they didn’t have it. They had the stroll rum. I was like, okay, I’ll try it. And they brought the glass and the, and the Coke separate. Right. And I swear the glass had, it looked like may be a half a shot of rum.

And she let me put the, you know, put the Coke in. I put all that coconut and could still taste the rope. Like the top of the bottle says caution, flammable.

So I say all that to say, [01:34:00] that’s the rum. My mother’s soaks the sweet potatoes in before she makes the sweet potato cheese. I 

[01:34:06] Joe Towne: can’t wait for Thanksgiving. Yes. How about the bass guitar? When you think about the bass guitar. First thing that comes to mind. 

[01:34:15] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Oh, utter joy and the bane of my existence. 

[01:34:23] Joe Towne: Perfect.

The bass guitar electric bass, or simply bass is the lowest pitch member of the guitar family. It’s a plucked string instrument, similar in appearance and construction to an electric or an acoustic guitar, but with a longer neck and scale lengths and typically four to six strings since the mid 1950s, the bass guitar has largely replaced the double bass in popular music.

The bass parts often define the root note of a chord, regardless of what other instruments. In [01:35:00] 1880, an academic music textbook informed its readers. That the base part is in fact, the foundation upon which the melody rests and without which there could be no melody psychologist, Laurel trainer, director of the McMaster university Institute for music and the mind offers, there is a psychological basis for why we create music.

The way that we do virtually all people will respond more to the beat when it’s carried by lower pitched instruments at the lower range of hearing, it is said that humans can hear down to about 20 Hertz beneath which we encounter a murky Sonic realm called infrasound the world of elephant and mole hearing.

But while we may not hear those lowest frequencies, we feel them in our bodies unless we’re listening through tiny earbuds or shopping malls. University of Vienna, cognitive scientist to come to Fitch, writes for louder, deeper bass notes than those using these tests. People may also feel the resonance [01:36:00] in their bodies, not just hear it in their ears, helping us to keep rhythm.

For example, when deaf people dance, they may turn up the bass and play it very loud. He says so that they can literally feel the beat via torso based resonance. According to Tom Barnes at Mike there’s scientific proof, that basis are actually one of the most vital members of any band in the 1950s Leo fender and George Fullerton developed the first mass-produced electric bass guitar.

The fender bass was a revolutionary instrument for gigging musicians in comparison with the large, heavy, upright bass, which had been the main base instrument in popular music from the early 20th century to the 1940s, the bass guitar could easily be transported to shows in 1953. Monk Montgomery became the first basis to tour with the fender bass in Lionel Hampton’s big band.

Montgomery was also possibly the first to record with the electric bass on [01:37:00] July 2nd, 1950. With the art farmer septet the bass guitar was intended to appeal to guitarists as well as upright bass players and many early pioneers. The instrument such as Carol K Joe Osborne and Paul McCartney were originally guitarists.

The role of the bassist in the band is the Sonic link between the rhythmical and melodic elements of any band. The baseline is the support system. It fleshes out the sound of the band and adds power and groove. Bass players are members of the rhythm section, along with the drummer rhythm guitars. And sometimes the keyboardist, ultimately a good bass player needs to have the right attitude.

Miles Davis once said anybody can play. The note is only 20%. The attitude of the motherfucker who plays it is 80%. In his case, he may have been referring to Charles Mingus or curly Russell or Foley. So who was the greatest [01:38:00] ever to slap on the base? Bootsy Collins, John Entwistle, prince Esperanza Spalding, Rhonda Smith weigh in who you got.

Okay. You mentioned them earlier. Langston Hughes, 

[01:38:17] Malcolm Jamal Warner: uh, poet to God. 

[01:38:22] Joe Towne: How about Dick Gregory? 

[01:38:26] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Uh, master. Of knowledge. Yeah. Miss stepbrother. 

[01:38:33] Joe Towne: Okay. What about black cowboy culture? 

[01:38:36] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Uh, Matt 

[01:38:38] Joe Towne: Turner. Okay. Deadwood Dick. Yes. 

[01:38:42] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yes, but I just, it was funny. So I just, um, thought about this, uh, this Instagram post. Have you seen that, that talks about the, 

[01:38:53] Joe Towne: is it, uh, the, the guy who jumps in and basically says everything we know about Cowboys is wrong?

[01:39:00] Uh, yeah. You’re the one who sent me on a rabbit hole. So you were on a vacation, you were going to celebrate eight seconds and I want people to go check out eight seconds, the art exhibit, but understanding even the term Cowboys and, uh, people. I want them to go on Instagram or Tik TOK or wherever they find that video.

And I want them to come back after and let’s continue this conversation, not low bill Pickett, bass Reeves, Joanna July. I know about them now because of you. So thank you. Oh, 

[01:39:38] Malcolm Jamal Warner: awesome. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, I mean, I have to say that was, uh, that was eye opening for even myself. Um, and, and, you know, I, you know, I’ve grown up, you know, Blair Underwood, uh, has been a close friend of mine for, you know, more than half of our lives now, but, you know, [01:40:00] Blair, uh, Glynn, Turman, Reginald Dorsey, there’s, uh, uh, you know, a group of, of cast.

I know black actors who, you know, they were like, not just in the horseback riding, but even the black rodeo. And I earned about the black rodeo through those guys. So even knowing what I knew, the eight seconds, you know, just, you know, that was an eye opening experience for me to really understand, you know, the, the history of even the term cowboy and how that was, you know, for so long, it was a derogatory term.

You know, which, uh, you know, it’s it’s look, I find just as interesting as, as I say, in, in master magicians, you know, we’ve taken this word that was a derogatory word, uh, used to describe us. And now [01:41:00] white kids use it as a term of endearment amongst themselves. 

[01:41:03] Joe Towne: Yes. That was really a Muir, uh, and beautiful poetry.

But I’m also really excited to watch the harder way fall to the top of my queue. And probably by the time this comes out, I’ll have watch that. 

[01:41:17] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. Same here. 

[01:41:19] Joe Towne: Okay. A few more things that I want to let you go. So a quote, I want to ask you about, I’ll say, share the quote and then see if I need to prompt where it comes from.

Okay. So I have more respect for a man who lets me know where he stands, even if he’s wrong than the one who comes up like an angel and is nothing but a devil, um, 

[01:41:44] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Malcolm X. Yeah. Yes, man. 

[01:41:50] Joe Towne: It’s the Oxford union debate. Yeah. And you know, your namesake, what’s the first thing that comes to mind. When you [01:42:00] think about that conversation he was having, 

[01:42:04] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I mean, Malcolm X has as always represented for me, the epitome of courage.

Right. Like to, to have the courage to speak your mind. And when he was part of the nation of Islam and he felt as strongly as he felt about racism and about white people and white society being the orchestrators of racism and the hatred spewed and the, uh, what he termed, uh, blue, white devils to feel that, and to stand with conviction behind those feelings without batting an [01:43:00] eye and be, and also be able to give you his, uh, give you his reasonings and speak in the King’s English.

And be very clear and be very succinct, very intentional about everything he’s saying as undeniable,

[01:43:21] Joe Towne: Malcolm X was an African-American Muslim minister and human rights activist, who was a prominent figure during the civil rights movement. Malcolm X was born Malcolm little in Nebraska in 1925. His family soon was moved to Lansing, Michigan because of threats from the KKK. When Malcolm was six, his father was hit by a street car and was believed to have been murdered.

The insurance companies argued that Malcolm’s father committed suicide. And so only one smaller policy was honored, unable to survive on $18 a month. His mother Louise little resorted to cooking dandelion greens from the street, [01:44:00] rented out part of her garden to help feed her children. The kids were expected to hunt for wild game.

Malcolm stole food for his family when they had no other means of survival. Louise was impregnated and abandoned by a man. She had been dating and presumed. She would marry soon after she suffered a nervous breakdown and was institutionalized. The children were separated and put into foster care though, academically near the top of his class.

Now cum was told by a teacher in eighth grade that he should become a carpenter instead of a. Because of his skin color. He soon dropped out of school and later Malcolm X were called feeling quote that the white world offered no place for a career oriented black man, regardless of talent and quote, he moved to live with his half sister in Boston, a railroad job instilled in him a fondness for travel.

And by age 17, he was residing in the New York city neighborhood of [01:45:00] Harlem. He befriended John Ellroy Sanford, a fellow dishwasher at Jimmy’s chicken shack in Harlem who aspired to be a professional comedian. Both men had reddish hair. So Stanford was called Chicago red after his hometown and Malcolm was known as Detroit read.

Years later, Sanford became famous as red Fox. He spent several years in jail and there, he spent every free moment in the library saying you couldn’t have gotten me out of books with a wedge. He followed his siblings into the nation of Islam and struck up a correspondence with its leader, Elijah Muhammad, Malcolm X emerged as the principal spokesman of the nation of Islam during the 1950s and early 1960.

He organized temples founded a newspaper and led temple number seven in New York. City’s Harlem, Elijah Muhammad appointed him as the national representative of Islam. The second most powerful position in the NOI [01:46:00] through the influence of the nation of Islam, Malcolm X helped to change the terms use to refer to African-Americans from Negro and colored to black.

And Afro-American Malcolm X believed collective self creation. The idea that black people could through force of will remake themselves his views on the civil rights movement. Fundamentally differed from that of Dr. Martin Luther king, Malcolm argued that more was at stake than the civil right to sit in a restaurant or even to vote.

The most important issues were black identity, integrity and independence in contrast to King’s strategy of non-violence and civil disobedience. Malcolm urged his followers to defend themselves by any means necessary. A brilliant public speaker, a charismatic personality, and an indefatigable organizer.

Malcolm X expressed the pent up anger, frustration and bitterness of African-Americans during the major phase of the [01:47:00] civil rights. From 1955 to 1965, he was later quoted as saying, in my opinion, the young generation of whites, blacks, Browns, and whatever else there is, you’re living at a time of extremism, a time of revolution, a time when there’s got to be a change, people in power have misused it, and now there has to be a change and a better world has to be built.

And the only way it’s going to be built is with extreme methods. And I for one will join in with anyone don’t care, what color you are, as long as you want to change this miserable condition that exists on this earth. He married Betty Sanders later that he acts the idea of using the ex was that African-Americans real, last names had been lost because of slavery, whatever last names they had in Africa did not come with them.

Instead. Many African-Americans carried last names, given them by their masters. [01:48:00] Malcolm was a feminist and often objected to Orthodox rules for women in mosques. In 1963, there were deep tensions between Malcolm and Elijah Malone. Over the political direction of the nation. Malcolm urge that the nation become more active in the widespread civil rights protests.

Instead of just being a critic on the sidelines, he also couldn’t believe how Elijah Muhammad had treated women. People spoke of Malcolm’s incredible discipline, his punctuality and his passion in 1965 in front of his family, he was murdered at the age of 39. Tens of thousands showed up to his funeral and his ideas and speeches contributed to the development of the black power movement of the 1960s and 1970s.

[01:48:49] Malcolm Jamal Warner: That’s courageous in itself. Then for him to go to Mecca and spend time praying with a white skin, [01:49:00] blue blue eye blonde hair, Muslims, and then to understand what the Muslim faith with, with Islamic faith was about beyond the teachings that he was taught prior to his Mecca, uh, visit. So to come back and then to say to his people, the very people who was preaching, I was wrong.

It’s not about skin color. I have, I have held hands. I have prayed with blue eyed, blonde haired, uh, brothers. Right. So to be able to have the courage to come back and, and, uh, with dignity, backtrack and say I was wrong, I wasn’t mistaken. And to be just as convicted in that, without batting an eye to me, that’s just, that’s the epitome of, of, [01:50:00] of, of courageousness.

[01:50:02] Joe Towne: Yeah. The, the courage of conviction. And also the courage of saying I was wrong. There’s um, a book that has been top of mind for me called think again by Adam Grant. And when I think about a few of the threads in our conversation, everything we may have known about history, everything we may have known about things like Cowboys, everything that Malcolm X was trying to point out that we’re still struggling to fully comprehend.

Maybe we are able to a little more clearly now, but for him to embody thinking again, and our ability to change our minds, that’s something that I’m hopeful about. 

[01:50:45] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah, man. Yeah, me too. Me too. A hundred. Okay. 

[01:50:50] Joe Towne: I hear some loving sounds in the background and I have just a couple more things and I’ll let you go, but I have one more quote for you.

If you’re not doing something you love, you’re [01:51:00] not enjoying the wow. What comes to mind. 

[01:51:04] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Oh, so as the wisdom, that’s that four year old wisdom straight from my daughter’s. 

[01:51:11] Joe Towne: I really want you to make that t-shirt with some of her art and I want to be the first to buy it. 

[01:51:17] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. Yo, yo, no doubt. I have to do that.

I have to do that, Joe. 

[01:51:23] Joe Towne: Knock on what’s something you can’t stop watching in your life. It could be a show. It could be something in your, out your window, but what’s something you can’t stop watching. 

[01:51:32] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I’m sure there, there are several things. Uh, the first thing that comes to my mind immediately is Ted lasso.

Yeah. 

[01:51:42] Joe Towne: Say more. Where are you in the journey? Are you season one, season two we’re 

[01:51:45] Malcolm Jamal Warner: uh, episode. I think episode two episode. Can we just start episode three of season two? And that show, you know, that show really expands my [01:52:00] sliver of hope for humanity. You know, the fact that that show was even able to get sold and made and that it re that it resonates with so many people is so awesome that you can have this show that is, you know, shows about like a good guy.

It’s like, how do you pitch a show in this time about a 

[01:52:26] Joe Towne: good guy? Well, maybe it’s maybe it’s what’s missing in the world. 

[01:52:30] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clearly and event, uh, Yvette, Nicole Brown turned me on to this, so like, I’d heard about it, whatever, but Yvette just, she, she talked about the show she tweeted about that show so much.

I was like, I don’t know if this is, let me just check this one episode out. And my wife and I have been hooked ever since. Okay. 

[01:52:50] Joe Towne: Well, when you crest to the end of season two, then we need to have some offline conversations. Okay. [01:53:00] I want to challenge you for a minute. What’s something that you might do better than most people.

The theme of this podcast is better. What’s something you might do better than most people.

[01:53:19] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I was going to say procrastinate, but I’m sure there’s probably somebody who was better at that. I mean, right now I feel like the king. Um, but I’m sure there’s someone, there are a few people out there who probably better with that than I am. Um, you know what? I don’t know. I don’t know. I, I don’t know. I mean, I, I would say, I mean, I guess I can, I can say that, uh, I love my wife better than anyone else, but there you go.

Yeah. You know, but, but her, her, her mother and her sisters I’ve loved her longer than I have. They might 

[01:53:57] Joe Towne: have something to say about that. Yeah. 

[01:53:59] Malcolm Jamal Warner: You [01:54:00] know, and my daughter loves, sir. Pretty, yeah. Pretty tough too. And then I can’t say, I love my daughter better. Cause my wife, I hear that, you know, you go, you know, and, and, and everything else, every, literally every thing in my life, I am so focused on getting better at that.

I feel like in every area of my life, there’s somebody who’s doing it better. 

[01:54:33] Joe Towne: Okay. So you led me to my next question, which is, what’s one thing that you’re working to get better at 

[01:54:38] Malcolm Jamal Warner: time 

[01:54:38] Joe Towne: management. I know you said that in order to finish, I don’t know if it’s this fourth album or if it’s something else you’re working on, but during the, uh, quarantine pandemic, early days, you were having to get up super early to get in some creative time.

So it sounds like your relationship to how you intentionally set your time is [01:55:00] something that you’re actively playing with. Yeah. 

[01:55:02] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. Cause this there’s just, there’s just, there’s so much stuff like there’s, it’s great to, uh, it’s a blessing and an honor to be able to have these different avenues of creative expression.

But now that I am a husband and a father. I’m sure as you know, that the time for creativity is even that much more limited. Absolutely. So in the, the, the chunk of time I have each day and some tests, some, some days I don’t even have it, but whatever time have for creativity, there are so many different things that are vying for that time that I, and, and there there’s different avenues of expression that I love and hold such importance to me that I’ve not yet been able to let [01:56:00] you know any of them go.

Um, and at any given time, I’m spending more time on something and something else is suffering. 

[01:56:10] Joe Towne: I feel that the idea of wanting to be the fullest self, we can be for all the things that matter how to shifting priorities in the moment to make sure that we’re feeding everything like that in our life. Uh, I’m right there with you.

Okay. There’s some things on the horizon that we should be looking out for. Right. Do you have this fourth annual exit 36 slam poetry festival coming up in December? Pompano beach 

[01:56:41] Malcolm Jamal Warner: arts, Pompano beach arts, uh, exit 36 December, I think, December 10th and 11th. Um, and I’m judging a slam there. I’m doing an artist’s talk.

I’m actually really excited about that. Cause it’s been a while since I’ve been out and it’ll just be, it’ll be nice to be out in the poetry [01:57:00] community X. 

[01:57:01] Joe Towne: Beautiful. And then the resident clearly, uh, what do you love most about playing Dr. J Austin? Um, 

[01:57:07] Malcolm Jamal Warner: I love that I get a chance to be the guy I don’t allow myself to be in real life.

You know, I get to play, you know, for your listeners who have not seen the show, this is, this is our, uh, our fifth season. So I’ll start by saying we’re on Fox and Hulu. And it is very much a binge worthy show to spend some time on, but I get, you know, my role Dr. Jay Austin, I’m one of the, uh, the top cardiothoracic surgeons in the country.

And with that, you know, with that, that honor, I’m also one of the most arrogant 

[01:57:47] Joe Towne: doctors. And I think confidence, some might say somewhere in the middle. 

[01:57:51] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah. And I love the fact that that is arrogance really comes from confidence and not overcompensating. Um, so, you know, [01:58:00] he’s brash, um, he cares more about telling the truth than how that truth lands.

On a person. Uh, and as a result, he does not care what anyone thinks about him. And I, you know, again, it’s, I want more of that in my own life. So it’s, you know, it’s, it’s great to be able to, you know, to play a Dick, uh, cause I don’t allow myself to be wanting to realize, 

[01:58:28] Joe Towne: yeah, it’s fun. That’s so fun. If people haven’t binged it, they definitely need to on Fox or Hulu.

And certainly now we gotta all look out for that kiss that went on for as long as it did Malcolm. This is such a joy to get to sit down with you. I want to say thank you. I want to say thank you for your passion, your generosity and your heart, uh, your fierceness and your vision and for your belief that we can all do better.

[01:59:00] I love and appreciate you, man. 

[01:59:01] Malcolm Jamal Warner: Yeah, man. Thank you. Thank you. And love right back to your jar. I, I, I appreciate that, you know, our friendship and I appreciate that you you’ve, you just always been, um, just really supportive and really encouraging, um, in terms of, you know, my art and I really appreciate that.

[01:59:25] Joe Towne: I loved that conversation. I love being reminded that happiness is possible. I love hearing about the daily practice habits that set us up for success, especially when practiced with consistency. I love the purposefulness that it takes to cultivate longevity in this industry or any industry. And it was as close relationship with an advice from his mom that provided that stability and perspective.

As he navigated that early success. I love the vision. It took with his CoStar of all of the things he wanted to be when he unfolded the [02:00:00] arc of his career, a triple threat and the idea of continually growing and applying our strengths and picking up new things along the way. I love hearing about how picking up an instrument as a hobby has opened up an entirely new expression of creativity and the idea that as we get.

Our perspective allows us to decouple with what other people might be thinking about us. So we can focus more deeply on our work and our passions and our families and our children and model it for them as well. All right, you’re not going to want to miss our next guest. Andrew Bernstein like many of the professional athletes, he photographs, Andrew D Bernstein is recognized as an all-star in sports photography.

The relationships Bernstein has developed with athletes, coaches, and teams over the years allows him exclusive access to special behind the scenes moments. He has been the team photographer for 12 professional home [02:01:00] teams, which won championships nine times with the Lakers with the 1988 Dodgers and the Kings in 2012 and 2014 Bernstein has covered 40 NBA finals and 38 all-star games as the senior NBA photographer in 2018 Bernstein collaborated with five time NBA champion, Kobe Bryant on the worldwide best-selling book.

The mama mentality, how I play a unique look at Brian’s 20 year career through Bernstein’s lens. He contributed to several other books, including a collaboration called journey to the ring, which he co-authored with hall of fame. Coach Phil Jackson in 2010. Bernstein is also co-founder of a fantastic sports content platform called legends of sport.

One more thing you should know is that the Naismith Memorial basketball hall of fame named Bernstein a 2018 Curt Gowdy award recipient, acknowledging his contribution to basketball media. [02:02:00] This prestigious award is presented annually to members of the electronic and print media whose longtime efforts have made a significant contribution to the game of basketball.

Bernstein is the second photographer to receive this honor. My continued thanks to you for writing those reviews and liking and sharing this podcast. It is amazing to see new countries popping up on who is out there listening. Welcome. I so appreciate your kind words and all of your enthusiasm about these conversations.

As we approach the new year, I can’t help, but think about this journey that we’ve been on together and how much it means to me. So again, thank you. Keep letting us know who else you’d like to see as guests on here as we dream about what’s next. Thank you for being a part of this community until next week.

Be well[02:03:00] .